Bacon Wrapped Business With Brad Costanzo
BWB Gulliver | Art Of Sales

Gulliver Giles: You Don’t Hate Selling, You Hate NOT Selling


Most often than not, sales is attributed to manipulation. This is the reason why many people hate selling. In this episode, Gulliver Giles—described as “the best sales trainer on the planet”—is here to turn your perception around and make you hate not selling instead.

Author of the book The Art of Sales, he comes prepared to clear your doubts once and for all. Gulliver made it his mission to re-educate the world about sales and salespeople and that despite the reputation, sales is not evil, and that real salespeople sell from a place of love, not manipulation.

Some Topics We Discussed Include:

  • How to wield the 2 sided blade of fear, slicing the fears off your clients and yourself
  • What the  “Shield of Perseus” has to do with overcoming your fear of sales
  • How to “be the accurate reflection of the projections of others so we can change their perception”
  • “You can't close a door that isn't open”
  • The difference between manipulation and persuasion is _____
  • The armor of God objection handling system to turn a yes into a no in five minutes.
  • How to figure out if a maybe is a yes or a no, and if a no is a yes
  • The 5 main types of objection and how to get over them

If you want to learn more about Gulliver Giles, and how to work with him and apply his systems, visit

About the Guest: Gulliver Giles

BWB Gulliver | Art Of SalesGulliver has been described as “the best sales trainer on the planet.” He's definitely one of the most UNIQUE, which will make sense when you hear about his “Sword of Sales” system and his famous “Armor of God” objection handling system have revolutionized the sales industry – in the best possible way.

Gulliver’s mission is to re-educate the world about sales and salespeople – his firm belief is that, despite its reputation, sales is NOT evil, and that real salespeople sell from a place of love, not manipulation.

When you listen to his episode, Gulliver will actually reveal his entire formula for handling sales objections that he terms “The Armor Of God,” which is normally only taught to his private clients at a very high price, but he gives to us for FREE!

Gulliver Giles: You Don't Hate Selling, You Hate NOT Selling

I am excited to have this episode for you. This is probably my favorite topic. This is the reason why I got into the world of marketing.

We’re going to talk about sales. That’s a general term but there’s nothing general and nothing boring about the topic nor my guest. Before I introduce you to Gulliver Giles, let me explain what you’re going to get out of this episode.

Before I started my own business and I got into marketing, digital marketing and publishing, the reason why I did that was because had I built my entire career. I’d sold advertising sales, I was a financial adviser, which is selling financial advice.

I sold commercial property service to CPAs and commercial property owners. I love selling. I love sitting down in front of somebody and building rapport and getting them to purchase and building that relationship.

What I was absolutely terrible at was marketing and lead generation. I didn’t know what a sales funnel was or a marketing funnel. I beat myself up cold-calling 200 dials a day to get somebody on the phone back when this was done more often.

It beat me down and I hated it. I realized I needed to learn something about marketing and lead generation. I dove in head first and I got good at that. Then it came back around to selling, which is one of the things I still love to do.

It’s about the relationships that you form with the people and the way that you’re providing value to them. It’s one of the oldest and most honorable professions even though many people are scared of it and think that it’s evil and yucky and all of that jazz.

We’re going to talk a little bit about ways to do it that are incredibly effective. That will blow your socks off if you had any sales training at all because this will probably be a bit different.

If you’ve never had but you’ve thought, “Maybe I could do this or maybe I couldn’t but I should,” then you’re going to want to read every single word of this episode probably with some notes in hand. That brings us to my guest.

I want you to meet Gulliver Giles. He is one of the Founders of Strategic Anarchy. It’s a sales company training company based over in Australia. He’s been described as the best sales trainer on the planet. I heard the guy who said it.

The first thing is that I took notice of is like, “Who is this guy?” and he used to go by the name, still does sometimes, of Thor the Sales Warlord. His Sword of Sales system and his famous Armor of God objection handling system have revolutionized the sales industry in the best possible way.

I’ve been through some of his training. I’ve seen his stuff. It is amazing and that is why I asked him on the call. Thor, Gulliver, are you with me?

I’m right here. Thanks for that awesome intro. You made me sound awesome.

I appreciate having you on the call. A lot of people will do the interview and then they’ll give you the plug at the end. I want to give the plug right away just incase people want to go and say, “I need to find out more about this.” What is the best place for people to get a hold of you?, there’s a little online thing that I’m going to be running there which is going to teach Armor of God 101 to a small group of seven people if you’re interested in coming on that.

The other thing is my The Art of Sales book as well, which is

Here’s where I want to go with this. I want to give people a little bit of background on what you do, who you do it for. I want to hit on the whole concept of The Crown of Command, the Sword of Sales, the Armor of God and the branding you do. I think it’s brilliant.

It’s definitely not a boring sales training that a lot of us have sat through in the past. Give me a background of your sales experience.

Going back to when I was fifteen, sixteen years old, my whole life was getting girls to come over to my place, which often meant getting them to sneak out of their parents’ place. Convincing people to do things they shouldn’t do. That was where I began.

Like many sales people, I began on the dark side of the force. That was a malaise that we see throughout society. A lot of people have that view in sales is about manipulation and certainly sometimes people have done a lot of manipulation whilst under the guise of selling.

I started there, I got into music, dropped out of high school, took a lot of drugs, chased a lot more girls, wake up at 24, bold and fat. Girls were running in the opposite direction. I had to cut off my hair off, get a suit, got a job.

One of my skillsets talking to people, persuading people as a singer, as a musician, as a punk rocker it was about influencing my audience and persuading them. I took that skill into corporate and made a lot of money.

I went from promotion to promotion and work up in my 30s. Leela, my wife now and my girlfriend then said, “You hate yourself and you hate your job.” I said, “Crap, screw you.” That’s my penis we’re talking about.

I got a shiny company car and a house and mortgage and all the things that are supposed to make you happy and yes, I am miserable.

Selling stuff, I didn’t particularly care about the people. I didn’t particularly work. I was in ad space sales at that point, so I was selling broad spectrum advertising.

It wasn’t effective and it was a changing market. The internet was starting to boom and people weren't getting the results from it than they used to. I felt bad about that.

When we got into business together, we started doing marketing training, information product training and sales training for people who are changing their business and getting them results.

It changed the way I felt about sales and I began to realize sales was about loving people and helping them. Not about trying to get them to give you money so that you can have money, if that makes sense.

That was one of the things that I loved. After I sat down, I started hearing some of your teachings because your persona, at least at that time, it seems like you’re going now just by Gulliver Giles as opposed to Thor Sales Warlord.

The idea of Thor Sales Warlord, the extremely masculine forceful figure, in the beginning I thought this probably is a pushy, forceful sales guy, ABC, Always Be Closing, hardcore.

Your core message and you said this right up front, is you have to love your customer. You have to love what you’re doing, believe in it and come from a place of love. In fact, you used that word, love. You didn’t dumb it down with, “You have to respect these people.”

I thought that was remarkable and it was also the real foundation of your training, techniques and everything else. What part of sales is your specialty?

Salespeople need to become an accurate reflection of the projection of others so that they can change their perception. Click To Tweet

When you take off the paint job, most cars, underneath all of the different shapes and sizes, there’s a chassis, wheels, a drive shaft, a gearbox and an engine. The sale works the same every single time.

You’ve got to get clear on your intro so that’s attention giving intro that gets them to feel as if they are engaging someone who’s legitimate.

You’ve got to get clear on your probing to make sure that you figure out what their needs are. You’ve got to get on your process so that you can give them breakthroughs around what you’ve got for them is going to be. What they need according to what they’ve told you.

Then you’ve got to get your offer right so that they’re drawn irresistibly to say, “Yes, that’s what I need.” Then you’ve got to handle any problems or objections which arise. That is the science in almost every circumstance.

My specific area that I do the most in is telephone sales of high-end business to business ROI based programs. That’s what I love to do is anything going to make people money, save people money.

That’s the more consulted of selling of high value consulting more packages, coaching programs, property or high-end things. That’s what I like to be where the most money is being made.

That doesn’t mean that I can’t give you help with your sales if you’re not $1 million a year consultant. It just means that your self process will be different value propositions, different breakthroughs but there has to be the same axioms, no matter what variables.

We worked on 80-plus different industries. When you strip everything off, the sales is always the same basic skeleton underneath. It’s just different value propositions, breakthroughs, ways of tangibilizing that value. Sales is my real passion.

It’s hard for me to sometimes ask questions I already know the answer to. The way that you branded yourself with your Crown of Command, Sword of Sales, Armor of God. Explain what those are briefly for the audience so that if we mention those, we don’t go over their head.

I want to talk a little bit about the Armor of God because that’s one of the things that blew me away the most when I learned it. Explain the genesis of these naming convention because it’s definitely an unconventional way to name sales training.

Your Crown of Command is a product. It refers to being in command of your sale. That is made up of a number of different things.

The first thing I teach is the Sword of Sales, which is understanding the difference between mutilating yourself with fear and manipulation and destroying your confidence around your sale.

Or loving your customers and respecting your customers and yourself enough to tell them the truth, fearlessly, even when it means you might lose a deal but for the right reason.

I look at the double-edged broadsword and it’s got two blades. One, I say is the blade of love and one is the blade of fear.

Most people do consider themselves in sales as employees or usually mutilating themselves with that blade of fear.

Whether it’s from a low self-esteem place of worrying about the commission, worrying about they’re too pushy, worrying about they’ll be able to pay their bills and being constantly in fear about that stuff.

Whether it’s over-compensating fear, whether you want to take money from people no matter whether there’s value or not in order to fly their helicopter into a mountain of cocaine.

Whether it’s the low self-esteem, worried about being too pushy or whether it’s the over-compensation of doing nothing but push and always be closing.

Those two are both imbalanced and they’re both detrimental to the salesperson and not truly reflective of what sales is as a craft, as a trait, as an honorable thing.

The blade of love is about going into battle from a point of view of not being concerned with yourself and all of your needs and worries but being concerned with slicing the fears, the issues and the demons off your clients and helping them.

Love sells from a place of, “I’m not worried about getting on this fun call because I’m not worried about the end of the fun call when I close. I’m worried about getting on this fun call because I'm worried about how much I can help this person.

More than I’m worried about emasculating myself with fear or overcompensating and pushing someone too hard. I’m just concerned with making sure I find out what their issues are so I can see if I can legitimately help them.”

The Sword of Sales is a metaphor from my sales script, which is a process of determining whether you can help or whether they’re not a client.

It’s not about trying to push them into doing anything. It’s more about convincing yourself that this is something that is going to be a good thing for them.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with another mentor of mine in the public speaking area. I don’t know if you know who Sean Stephenson is. He’s in a wheelchair, about three feet tall but he’s got the wisdom of Yoda. He’s an amazing guy.

There’s a podcast episode with Sean Stephenson. He teaches people how to get these amazing standing ovation style public speeches. He also teaches people how to get over their fear of public speaking, which is one of the biggest common fears.

The trick he has is exactly like what you said, only he used it in a different way. He said, “If you’re getting up on stage and you’re about to speak and you’re nervous, it’s for one of two reasons. Either one, you don’t know your thing.”

You’re about to be embarrassed because you don’t know what you’re going to talk about. I’m going to assume that you’re not getting up to speak about something you don’t know about. If you’re still nervous, it’s because you’re being a selfish prick.

You’re thinking too much about yourself. You’re thinking, “How is this person going to view me? Am I going to be polished? Am I going to look great? Are they going to love me?”

As opposed to getting up there if you’re going to give a speech thinking, “I have information that’s going to help the people in this audience. I don’t care how I deliver as long as I care enough about these people to deliver it to them in a way that they get it.”

He says, “When you start to that, you immediately lose the fear of how you’ll be perceived because you’re coming from a place of love, of service, ‘I don’t care about me, I just care about you.’”

I sense the same exact philosophy which is what you’re doing. How that can remove that sales fear getting on the phone and talking to somebody.

It’s funny that you should say that because that leads perfectly into the next step of my system which is what the Crown of Command is all about, which is the mindset of having that service love ethos.

BWB Gulliver | Art Of Sales

Art Of Sales: Sales is not about trying to push people into doing anything. It’s more about convincing yourself that this is something that is going to be a good thing for them.


What we talk about is something called The Shield of Perseus. The Shield of Perseus is about understanding the mirror.

The legend of Perseus is he goes to slay Medusa, the Gorgon, the chick with snakes for hair. She has this power to paralyze people into a block of stone.

If you are a salesperson you have been on that call, you’ve been in that meeting where you get thrown a curveball, you get thrown a question you don’t know the answer to or problem you don’t feel as if you could solve and you freeze up into a block of stone too.

It’s particularly pertinent to the salesperson this mythos of the Medusa. If you look into her eyes and become sucked into her power, you would freeze up into a block of marble. How do we avoid that?

Perseus polished his shield until it shone like the sun and he used the mirror to defeat the monster. He looked into the mirror and not into her eyes.

Here is the trick with sales, whether it’s from stage, face-to-face, on the phone or wherever you’re selling. It’s about not becoming drawn into fear but by looking clearly at the mirror. The mirror is I suppose a metaphor for the mindset that you must have.

This is a right of downer because we have a perception about how things are going to be when we get on stage, when we get on the phone, when we go to this meeting.

We turn that into a projection. We go on stage and we’re scared that we stutter, stumble and we miss things and we screw it up because we’re caught up in our own bullcrap. That we’re not thinking about the people who we’re supposed to be helping.

We copped the reflection, the audience boo’s, a guy walks out of the meeting not having bought from us, the dude hangs up on us because we go focused on our own limitations and fears not about what we’re going to achieve.

The way to reverse that in sales is as easy as reversing the order in which it occurs. Instead of being in a position where we have this perception weighing heavily on us, which is not real.

Then we’re projecting that out into the world and copping it straight back in the face and freezing up and freaking out.

Instead of being at the mercy of our perception, what we need to do is we need to be the accurate reflection of the projection of others so that we can change their perception, ethically and authentically.

When we go on to a sales call, people are concerned with closing, “I want to close like a boss. Buy a Lamborghini and down a few Quaaludes and smash their car into a tree. Being a salesperson is all about making all the money.” Yes and no.

What is all about is being concerned with getting that initial entry point with that person right by giving them your attention and caring about them and making them feel attended to and giving them your interests of being interested in them and finding out about them.

Giving them a clear picture of how much you would desire to help them and then calling them to take the action that you give them from you and take that action and take that forward into the world and do something with it.

Only then does the objection handling and closing become something that is important. We’re worried about the end of the process. We’re not even thinking about what’s going to be the start of the process.

The sale is made in that first ten minutes where we open the sale and we open that person up and find out all about them and help them. Closing is easy if you open the door in the first place. You can’t close a door that isn’t open.

I love the symbology, like the Shield of Perseus. I can see people about to go into a sales presentation and thinking about that, “I’ve got to polish my shield, I’ve got to do that.” It can almost be like this mental ritual that folks can do prior to that.

Only a couple of years ago in La Jolla, I got up on stage and was teaching at one of Frank Kern’s events. He’s a very kind man and very sweet decent person.

For all people to talk about millionaires being evil and being liars, I have never met a more lovely, decent, generous, kind, trustworthy man. He’s amazing.

I have nothing but nice things to say about him. He’s personally changed my life on many levels and made me aware of how I could be more wealthy, more helpful and do better work for others.

I got up on stage to sell a program in partnership with Frank. It was an expensive program. It was a six-figure program and I was freaking out a little bit because it was a little bit outside of my comfort zone. It was the biggest thing that I’ve ever sold.

I was freaking out the night before. I said to Leela, “I’m a bit scared, what if i get up in front of all these important clients and I let Frank down because I do the right job and they don’t want to buy it, we don't make any money and it’s an embarrassment and a failure? What if I mess it up?”

She was like, “You’re going to do the same thing always. You’re going to get up on stage dressed like a Viking. You’re going to make them laugh. You’re going to them through a bunch of breakthroughs.

You’re going to change their way of feeling about sales and they’re going to take away the value from that or they’re going to buy from you or not. If they don’t, then that’s okay. It is what it is.” I’m like, “You’re right. I need to focus on doing the value for them.”

It’s not just you. If you’re reading this and you freak out about getting on the phone, I do too and I make millions of dollars a year from my clients and for myself. I still freak out about stuff. It never goes away but it’s about how you learn to deal with it and dance with that fear.

As Tony Robbins would say, “Dancing with that fear instead of being crushed down by it or driven into a dark hole of self-mutilation, using it to hurt others.

To be that pushy, horrible, criminal fraud salesperson that we’re frightened of being. As long as you’re focused on them, loving them, helping them, you can’t mess it up too badly.”

Like you said, “Shine light on them. Don’t think too much about the end,” because the end takes care of itself if you do all the other steps correctly.

It brings me back when I was single. I’d be out talking to a girl maybe at the bar, a coffee shop or whatever. Where a lot of guys would get nervous and I’m thinking, “I’ve got to go talk to that girl, get her phone number.”

They’re already thinking about sex usually or relationships or how do I get her to be my girlfriend and go on a date. I completely removed all of my nerves by doing the next step. Then also my success, my only goal if I walked up and talked to a girl was to do one thing.

That’s to get her to ask me what my name is. I would never go up and introduce myself, “I’m Brad, what’s your name?” I wanted to be thought of as interesting or charming enough to where she was curious enough to go, “What’s your name?”

The minute she did that, that was when I go to the next step. If I walked up constantly thinking, “How am I going to get this girl in bed or on a date or whatever?” She can smell that.

Don’t think too much about the end because the end takes care of itself if you do all the other steps correctly. Click To Tweet

I'm probably not going to be focused on her being charming, making her want to know a little bit more about me.

It’s the same thing I’ve done in sales as well where I’m focused on that other person and what they need that they realize that, “You’re asking me some great questions, you must know what you’re talking about. What is it you sell again?”

The minute they ask you, “What is it you’re selling?” It’s great because you’re not leading off with that. Now you’ve peaked their curiosity. I’ve used the same general theory. It’s not the exact same thing but it’s definitely worked for me and it’s in the same spirit of what you’re talking about.

What you’re talking about is giving to get. When you look at Collier, the old copywriter from way back, who wrote the formula for advertising and marketing and sales, which is to get their attention, get their interests, get their desire, get their action.

A slight twist on that, give them your attention, give them the interest. Be interested. Give them a desire to want to do more with you and give them an action to take that will allow them to achieve their goals through doing more with you.

You’re there but it’s going to be about you giving it to them. It can’t be taking it from them. You can’t make anyone do freaking anything.

A lot of dudes out there are selling the great rohypnol NLP seduction or the great rohypnol NLP sales technique. There are a lot of people out there selling the sale but isn’t a sale.

There are a lot of people out there rolling turds and glitter. The problem is sales is not a turd. To be rolling good, sales is gold if it’s about helping someone else make a decision for themselves about something going to help them.

The people who insist on trying to treat sales like it is a turd to be rolling glitter. If you see them out in the marketplace, what they’re telling you is that they believe sales is a bad thing. They’re saying that sales is a big old lie and that sales is about just frauding people and sales is ugly.

If they’re trying to sell you that, it shows you their limitations. Sales is about giving people attention, giving people interest, caring about them desiring to help them. Giving them actions to get themselves their results.

If you’re doing anything else, I put it to you that you’re not selling. You’re messing these people for money.

That’s where manipulation comes in. A lot of people think, “Sales is manipulation. Sales is slimy. Sales is sleazy. I feel gross doing it. I feel like I’m just getting money for nothing.” If you feel like you’re getting their money and you didn’t deliver, then it is. You are manipulating them.

You probably should get out of sales and go back to being a third-grade teacher or whatever makes you feel good that you love. The difference between manipulation and persuasion is intent.

Manipulation is like, “I’m going to go up to that girl, put rohypnol in her drink and take her home against her will.” That’s manipulative, horrible, evil crap.

Sales is about persuading someone using what they’ve told you they need and aligning it ethically and authentically, legitimately with something you can do to help them and saying, “Here’s how this can help you.”

When they wobble, showing them that the likely outcome of them not doing it is going to be hurtful to them. The outcome of them doing it is likely to be good for them. Asking them to make a decision on that phase is in clarifying that for them.

It’s what the Armor of God is all about. It’s not about making anyone do anything. Frank says, “The Armor of God is the simple system turning no into a yes in five minutes.” I love him as a copywriter and I appreciate what he’s saying but it’s not just about that.

It’s a system to figure out whether the maybe is a no or a yes, or whether the yes is a no or the no is a yes. It’s all of those things. There are two boxes on my desk, yes or no? I don't much care which she fall into but there’s no maybe.

At the end of the Armor of God if you’ve done it properly, you get off the Armor of God and you’re like, “That guy was a no and I was never going to sell to him and it would’ve been a mistake to do so.” You walk with your head up.

You don’t feel like, “I'm a failure because I failed to persuade him.” You figured out that he was never going to buy or it wasn’t right for him. You did everything you could to serve him and it wasn’t right.

You did everything you could to help him and he fought for his limitations more than he was prepared to fight to grow. You offer to fight by his side to help him grow that he fought you to hold on to his limits and you said, “This guy’s a prick. I’m moving on.”

There are three ways that sales conversation should end. Number one, you end the call because you know it’s a bad client and it’s not going to be good. You don’t have to be rude about it but you don’t have to stay on the call.

Number two is, they hang up on you because you won’t give up on them and you know their bullcrap excuses, adjust that and you’re there to help them and you’re not going to give up or take no for an answer.

You say, “You’re going to have to hang up on me because I know I can help you. If you’re not going to buy from me, you’re going to have to hang up the phone.” They hang up and you know, it’s good and you move forward or they buy from you and you help them.

Those are the only three ways you should end a conversation. It should be like, “Based on all of your conversation over the last hour and a half, you’ve convinced me that this is not for you because you have many limitations that you want to cling to and I can’t help you.”

“Thank you for your time. If that changes maybe in the future, maybe we can have another conversation but right now this is not for you. Thank you so much, goodbye.”

Number two is Brad won’t say no, but Brad won’t say yes. I just keep doing the Armor of God until he finally hangs up because he knows he wants it. He knows he should do it. He knows he needs it, but he can’t deal with it. He moves on and I don’t feel bad because I didn’t give up.

I didn’t give up on him, he gave up on himself. Number three, Brad says, “Let’s do this.” They’re all fun. The process is the fun.

Once you dial it in, you understand that it can be a process without being a strict script. You have formulas but it’s not, “Say exactly this, say exactly that,” like stick to the script verbatim.

It’s understanding what we’re doing here and be responsive to them in a way that sticks to the formula, especially with the Armor of God.

Now might be a good time to go into some parts of that. I was going to ask you. You work with somebody who’s already in sales. I’m sure you train some people who have never done sales but they feel like they want to.

Then I imagine that most of the people you work with, especially when it’s companies, is you’re helping them improve a sales system that’s either broken or nowhere near its potential.

When you go and start working with somebody, what’s usually the first thing that you notice or the most common thing that they’re doing totally wrong that you’re able to come in and tweak quickly?

BWB Gulliver | Art Of Sales

Art Of Sales: To sell, give people a desire to want to do more with you and give them an action to allow them to achieve their goals through doing more with you.


Usually, I find they have no script. They have no system. They have no objection handling cycle. They’re assing it most often.

From the guys who are scared of it and they’re assing it because they don’t know what to do because they never invested in themselves, to guys who are great but have no systems.

Even the biggest corporations in the world and there are some big ones, their sales approach is not as heavily systematized as it needs to be. I’ve had big software companies come to us and not sell us stuff for months.

When you use phrases like, “Excellent, sold,” and they say, “I'm going to send you an email.” I think that’s the biggest thing. There’s no structure in place that forces the salesperson to be accountable.

They tell the salesperson, “Here are all the features and benefits of our product, go out and see if you can get somebody to give us money for it.”

They’re horrible. You’re saying things like, “How do we get started? Great, I’m sold.” They’re like, ‘’Get my design manager to call you and talk about all the other options you do in social media and we’ll talk to you next month.”

It’s no wonder that a lot of people who have done sales and maybe failed at it or had medium success hate it because it can be like pulling teeth if you don’t have some system or structure to it.

It’s everything. I like to say, your process is the proof of the profit of your product. If you don’t have a process that takes them through step by step how it’s going to work for them which proves it to them, then you’re screwed.

You’re leaving money on the table. You’re leaving hundreds, thousands, of millions on the table if you’re not doing that every week.

The process is the proof of the profit of your product. Whether that’s a hard profit like, “I’m going to make you $1,000 more,” or whether it’s, “I’m going to save you $1,000.”

Whether it’s a soft thing like, “I’m going to increase your mobility in your joints and make you feel more wellness.” You need to tangibilize that through breakthrough, through process. That’s what my style script is all about. It’s not about being a micromanaging script Nazi.

Although I’m sure there are people in the next room who think I am after the last few days. It’s about getting that process working so they understand the underlying skeleton of what has to happen every single time.

There’s a difference between axioms and variables. Variables will always be variables. When you’re in real estate, you’re in cars, selling footwear.

The axioms are always the same. You have to give that customer attention; you have to get them to understand that you’re trying to give them the opportunity to change something. You have to be psychopathically, optimistically interested about them.

You have to give them your desire to help, “This is how I think I can help. This is what he’s going to do. Do you agree this would be a good outcome for you? In that case, here’s how much is going to cost for his Mastercard.”

You have to give them an action to take. Then you have to handle any problems. You have to have an objection in process.

That’s an area that I’ve seen both with clients that I’ve worked with, in myself in the beginning, not having an objection handling process, then seeing yours. A lot of people put no attention on the objection handling process.

They get defensive and they’ll either argue or they will completely shut down because they think that the objection that the person has is a legitimate objection. They’re like, “I don’t know if I can afford it.” They go, “Sorry, maybe call us back when you can.”

They get off because they don’t want to deal with that. They don’t want to dive deeper into the reason for the objection.

The reason for the objection isn’t necessarily the real reason and it could be what they think it is. That objection can easily be overcome if they had more information or if they looked at it from a different perspective. Give the readers what the Armor of God is and why it’s effective. 

There are five key objections. Number one, money. Number two, time. Both of those are the Adam and Eve of objection. They are the mom and dad of objections. They are value-based objections.

The other objections are what I would call the deferral smokescreen objections. Partner or the other, “I need to talk to my boss, my dog, my wife, my husband, my sidekick. I need to pray.”

Then there’s info, “I need more information. I need time to go and consider the information and do more research.”

“I need to avoid taking action in order to try analyzing information that I have which says that I’m never going to do anything with this because I have done nothing with it yet and I never will and I have a lot of evidence. That’s the case.”

“I’m going to go and spend my time looking at all the evidence that I can’t do anything ever again and I’m going to keep focusing on what I can’t do and how I can’t do it.” Partner information and trusting credibility, “I need to see how everyone else has done this.”

“I need to see all your testimonials. I want to ring every single one of your clients. I want to know what your success rate is. I don’t know if I trust you to give you my credit card.” What they’re saying is, “I don’t trust myself.” All of those objections are lies. Every single one of them is not true.

Understand this, all objections are excuses. All excuses are bullcrap. All objections are lies. There are those of you freaking out, “What if I don’t have the money? What if I can't find the time? What if I need more information?”

The real money objection, the truth is, “I don’t have the money, but I want this so badly. I’m going to go and find the money.” The fake money objection is, “I don’t have the money but what I mean is I’m not going to do nothing about this. I could find the money.”

“There’s money everywhere and even in the poorest neighborhood in this country there’s a junkie doing $3,000 a week with heroine, awake. He’s finding the money. People always find the money for things they want to do.”

“I could make the money. I could sell something on eBay. I could make an extra sale in my business. I could find the cash to do it.” Just a secret between you and me, every program I’ve ever bought off anyone ever, everything I’ve ever done was from money I did not have and had to go and make.

It’s probably the same with everyone I know who’s a six or seven-figure earner. You do the decision making. You decide to do it. You find the money to fund it. You make the money to fund it. That’s how it always works.

If they say, “I don’t have the money,” more often than not what they mean is, “I don’t want it enough to get off my butt to get the money.” One of the best proofs of that is you’ll see people who can barely pay rent walking around with an iPhone.

If you want that thing bad enough, you will find a way to get it. You’ll go into debt, you’ll do whatever because you value it like, “I’ve got the newest Nike sneakers. I’ve got to have the best iPhone. I’ve got to keep on upgrading even though I’m late to my landlord.”

That’s proof that people will find money for things that they want it bad enough. If they’re saying that, you either haven’t done a good job of describing what you have to sell or they don’t want it.

Sales is about giving people attention, interest, and actions to get themselves their results. Click To Tweet

They’re bullcrapping themselves, which is more often the case than either of those. I had a personal trainer come to me who had a gym who’s earning about $500,000.

He came to me and said, “I want to do your residential,” where we have nine days, we force you to get on the phone. People make $500,000 in sales in that period of time or more. He wanted to come. Back then it was cheap, it was only $15,000.

At the last minute, his then girlfriend shafted him, all his PayPal account got shut down. He got ripped off for a whole bunch of cash. He had to sell his car. He sold his BMW in order to be there and he hands over this big chunk of cash to us the day shows up.

That same time, this guy came to me and said, “I want to learn from you.” I said, “This is how much it is,” and then he said, “I don’t have the money for that.” The next day on his Facebook page I saw he bought a brand-new car.

That guy, no one knows who he is. The dude who became my client came to my event, sold a $110,000 worth of stuff that week and then went on to sell another 47 products at $10,000 each in the following month. He made about $500,000, doubled his business within 30 days.

This is the thing. Cars don’t make money, but knowledge does. The guy who was convinced he could do it found the money. The guy who wasn’t, went and spent the money that he lied to me about not having on a car.

You see this all the time in sales. They’re always lying to you. It’s not because it's personal to you but they’re lying to themselves about what they’re capable of doing and what they’re not.

The big money objection, the real one is, “I don’t have it but I'd sell my car. I’ll do whatever it takes because that’s how badly I want this.” The fake one is, “I don’t have the money, but I’m not prepared to do anything about it.”

Your job with the Armor of God is to figure out which one of those that you’re dealing with. Time, “I don’t have the time,” means, “I am not going to make the time to do this.” Everyone creates the time for what they want. I’ve created the time to be on this interview.

I could be making sales in my own business, I could be talking to my guys, but I value the exposure this interview has for my message and the ability to serve you my friend to help me, to help you, to help each other and to help our clients.

I value this more than anything else. I made the time. This is the thing, time is money but if you don’t make the time, you will not make the money. The fake time objection is, “I don’t have the time.”

The real time objection is, “I don’t have the time but I’m going to carve it out. I’ll squeeze blood out of the sun. I’ll get up earlier. I’ll go to bed later. I’ll stop watching television. I’ll make the time to do this because I have to do it.”

I’ve mentioned this on another podcast in the past and I didn’t come up with this concept but when you realize this concept, it can change your entire viewpoint about this. There is no such thing as time management. It doesn’t exist.

Nobody can manage time. We all have 24 hours in a day. The only thing we can manage is activity. Time management is activity management. I can shuffle things around and now I have time to do X but I’ve never managed time. I just manage what I’m doing with it.

I caught myself doing that exact same things, “I don’t have time to do this.” I do if I stop doing X, I’ve got time to do that. It’s such a little simple shift that I did years ago after probably reading it in a book. Maybe it will help some people out there. It’s true. It’s an excuse.

Same goes for information. “I don’t have enough information,” means, “I’m confused but I’m not prepared to tell you what I’m confused about because I want to get off the phone.”

Not I’m confused but I know I need to not be confused and the only way I’m not going to be confused is to do something about this and start analyzing from an educated point of view the changes rather than analyzing what I don’t know about what I don’t know.

I was working with a client and I was helping them with their sales process. I was asking them how do they handle objections. What if somebody says, “I need more information?”

Typically, the people would get on to the webinar and whatever. Then they would ask to be called, etc. just a very standard process.

The sales people were saying, “Let me send you a replay link for the webinar, you can watch that and then let’s schedule a time to get back on the phone after you’ve watched the webinar.” As opposed to even asking them, “What more information do you want? What do you need?”

“What about this don’t you understand?” I was cringing. I was like, “You’ve got the person on the phone, you’re seriously telling them go watch the webinar either again or to get the information they need.”

I was dumbfounded. It shows out there  that people don’t have a process. They don’t have a system. They’re just winging it. 

They live in fear and that they are not enough and the webinar, the email or the website or the other form media is going to do the job for them and that maybe someday money will rain from the imaginary cellar, “Put them back through the webinar,” then they’ll buy. No, they won’t.

I don’t even need to ask the stats of how many people who left for that reason ever came back and bought. I guarantee it’s zero.

What it comes back to for me, isn’t the outcome. I don’t care whether they bought it or not after the thing. I care about the gutlessness of not trying to even help people and solve their problems and that miles of justification that pour out of people’s mouths like diarrhea.

Of all the reasons why. Wouldn't you rather feel good about yourself by trying to help that person? If they say no, that’s cool. If they say yes, then great. At least you could walk with your head up instead of being coward your whole life.

It shows the laziness. If the say, “I don’t have enough information,” “Go watch this.” You’re too lazy to help this person find out. You don’t even care enough to ask, “What is it you want to know? I’m here to help you. I’m here to tell you.”

That’s the Shield of Perseus. This perception is that they are going to do worse than the webinar. The webinar is awesome but the person who has watched it once didn’t pay attention to it, what does that tell you?

The information is a smokescreen for the real problem and they don’t see the value. Same with trust. Same with credibility, “I want to see all these other things from other people about how you got them results.”

“That’s great, I can show you those, but you’ve already done your due diligence. You come through my phone, you come to my webinar, you’ve already heard the testimonials, you’re still not sure. Correct?” “Yes.” “Good.”

BWB Gulliver | Art Of Sales

Art Of Sales: Time is money but if you don’t make the time, you will not make the money.


“I want to reward you for saying that because it tells me you’re never going to be sure and I want to reassure you the only reason you’re ever going to be sure is after you’ve bought this, after you’ve done the work. After you’ve done the return on investment, then you’re going to be sure.”

You should be scared because you’re not doing the work, you don’t know what I know. You’re not getting the results and nothing is going to change until that changes. There are two ways this can go. You can get off this phone to go and analyze all the information.

That’s freely available on the internet and do nothing with it and make no money or you can come to put some skin in the game. Take a little bit of a risk to do something. Be courageous. Take action. Back yourself into a corner and make bloody money.

Guess which one of those people is going to get a result? Do you want to be the guy that gets the result? That’s your Armor of God.

I want to address the readers here because what Gulliver just said probably sounded like, “That was genius. That was smooth and slick and he came up that off the top of his hat. I would buy from him. That was great.” He is explaining the Armor of God.

If you’re good, you should be listening to this breaking down every sentence he did. What I want you to know as an insider because I’ve been through the Armor of God is there is a formula that he went through.

I’m not going to give it away because this is some highly priced intellectual property. You can learn from Gulliver for a price. What he did can be done, mastered and learned by anybody even if you think, “There’s no way I could be that smooth.”

I wanted to say that on your behalf, Gulliver, because I know that probably went over the heads of a lot of people, some of the things that you were doing there and how you’re doing it. There is a formula that folks can do that.

I appreciate your respect for my intellectual property. I would love to give that as a gift on this call. If anyone wants to buy something from me and learn with me, have my context on my coaching and my teaching, they can have that too. I would love to give them that formula now.

This podcast alone, the value just went sky high. I hope you realize that. Feel free.

There’s no lack in the world. There will be some people on this call that go away use this and make money from it and get success feed their families, help their clients and they don’t pay me a cent and I’m fine with that.

There’ll be some people on this call that don’t use it, come to me and say, “I’m scared to use this I need help,” and they’ll buy something from me.

There are some people on this call that will do it, use it, make money from it, come to me and say, “This is epic. What else have you got for me?”

I don’t care. I know this is going to be more money for me and more money for everyone on this call if I share this with you and trust that some of you want help or reach out to me. Some of you won’t. I don’t care. I’m going to make more money anyway.

Step number one. Armor of God, active listen, “I hear what you’re saying, Brad. It sounds a lot like you’re saying you don’t have a lot of money and I hear what you’re saying.” Step two, reward. “I want to reward you for saying that.”

Step three, reassure. “I want to reassure you, most of the people come to me don’t have tons of money. They aren’t very good at sales and for that reason, they need help. They come to me needing help and they don’t have a lot of money, so they’re in a bit of a double bind.

What I’ve done there, the first three steps of the nine steps. Bear with me. Active listen is about making them feel good, which means demonstrating to them that you have listened to them actively by telling them back what they said.

“Brad, I hear what you’re saying. What I’m hearing is. Is that correct?” Give them a reason to interact and make them feel part of the process.

I throw one of those in at the end of everything, “Correct, feel me, good, got me? Did you hear that? Is that right? Is that correct?” At the end of each one of those, I’ll salt and season to make sure they’re still with me.

“Brad, I hear what you’re saying that you’ve got a problem with money. I want to thank you and I want to reward you for bringing that up. Being a proud entrepreneurial man, we all go through this.

There are some weeks where you got $50,000 in your account. There are some weeks where you’re negative $0.67 because you had to pay all these people because it takes money to make money. I want to reward you for being honest.”

If he’s being honest with us about one of his objections, he might have more objections. I want him to bring out all of his stupid excuses so I can crush them all into dirt.

When they’re all dead and I’ve beaten them all into the ground with my hammer of Thor, then there will be nothing left except the credit card. I want him to feel good about talking to me so I’m going to reward him.

Then I’m going to reassure him that it’s okay, it’s not just him it’s me and everybody else. We all have this problem, it's not a big deal.

Those are the first three steps. Make them feel good about telling you things. Reassure them it’s not just them, everyone has this crap. They shouldn’t be embarrassed or ashamed of it.

The cool thing about the rewarding part and where that’s unique is most times when the objection comes up, that’s when the salesperson immediately goes on the defensive mode and now there’s a conflict.

Objection comes out that’s the beginning of the conflict and then the way the salesperson reacts perpetuates the conflict and you don’t do that.

You neutralize it right there by rewarding them. It’s completely unexpected. It paves the way for the next steps. I just want folks to understand just how genius that little tweak there is.

People like people who like them and make them feel good and make them feel understood and make them feel loved. People don’t like people arguing with them and slapping the crap out of them. I’m going to do some slapping later on this call.

Later on the Armor of God, it does get a little bit slappy. I build the permission to do that through the whole call and at the end through making them feel heard active listening, then rewarding them then reassuring them. It starts to get a little bit heavier.

The next step is remind. “I want to remind you in the last half hour we talked about your circumstances with your family and how you want to be a better partner and a better father and a better provider.”

“You talked about the frustration in your business about your lack of leads, your lack of sales, your lack of money. We talked about this. This is the reason that you came to me. I want to realign you.” Step five, realigning.

“I want to realign you with that for a moment. Forget about your lack of credit card funds. Look at what’s eyeing on here. I’m giving you the golden keys to everything we need to change this and you’re saying, “I don’t have money.” I don’t care. What are we going to do about it?”

Everyone creates the time for what they want. Click To Tweet

“There are two stories now and I’ll tell you, I want to refrain you.” Step six, refrain. “I want to refrain you a little bit. The first story is a little bit depressing but hear me through.”

“Once upon a time there was a brave guy by the name of Brad Costanzo. He was working hard. He was kicking ass, but he was always in a cashflow pinch because his sales sucked and he knew it. He came to the mentor who was this world-renowned mentor.

He took an hour of his time and together they came up with the plant to make six or seven figures more. It came at the end of the call to invest. Brad was so crushed down and depressed and fearful he could not see a way beyond his immediate cashflow problems.

Instead of trying to think of one. He freaked out and got off the phone. That’s a very depressing story and that’s where the story ends.

You can pretty much bet that version of Brad in that alternative timeline in that dark timeline, he’s still broke and he’s still pissed off. It’s still worst.

Let me tell you a different story. This is a more positive story. Once upon a time there was a hero, a warrior. A guy named Brad who was sick of it. He was sick of not having any money and he spat in the face of fear and he spat in the face of the devil and he said, “I’m going to change this.”

He said, “Gulliver, here’s my last dollars on my card. I will drain out my card. I will go find more money. I will jerk off the dog to feed the cat, I would sell my car. I will do what it takes. I’ll back myself into a corner and I will never surrender. I will fight.” Which Brad do you reckon wins?”

It’s contrast but you’re also disassociating them. You’re putting them into a story so now they get to imagine or picture in something. They’re out of the sales conversation. They’re into a story that they’re seeing it, they’re feeling it and you’ve just changed their state completely for the next step.

That’s the future paced refrain. Using the story to refrain them. Using future pacing. This is what’s likely going to happen if you keep behaving like this. This is what’s likely going to happen. Rip that off Tony Robbins’ Dickens Process.

Next step, contrast. Which Brad do you want to be? Do you want to be Brad who stays frustrated and broke? Or are you going to be Brad who fights? If you don’t have any fight in you, I can’t help you. If you’re Brad who  wants to fight, we will win.

100% of the people get in the ring have a chance of winning. You get knocked down and you get back up, I will fight with you if you’re fighting for wealth and freedom. I cannot fight your limitations if you’re not willing to fight them with me.

You’ve made it about something much bigger than the sale. You’ve made it about my identity. You’ve only given me two choices. I only get two paths to take. I either get to be A or B. Whatever I choose says a lot about how I view myself.

If you say, “There’s another path,” and I’m like, “Tell me what that is.” You’re like, “It’s the path where I go away and think about it.” That path leads to being Brad number one.

Brad number two has done thinking about it. Brad two is ready to get his knuckles bloody fighting for his future. I can only work with Brad number two. Do you want to be Brad number two? Or would you want to be excuse-making guy?

Those are all trial closes. The other trial close that I would then probably pop in is how would it feel beating this cashflow problem?

How would it feel putting that extra $10,000, $20,000, $30,000, $50,000 in the bank every month? How would it feel coming home knowing that all of your bills are paid?

Being able to take your wife on that holiday, how would that feel? It’s that worth of the short-term pay and scuttling and scuffling and getting in the boot strap and street fighting fight for your life to make those sales? Is it worth it? I will fight by your side if you think it’s worth it.

At that point, if they say it’s not worth it, they disqualify themselves.

Take away, it’s not for you. This is not for you. I can only fight with fighters. I can only teach eagles to fly higher. I do not teach turkeys to flap their wings and pretend to be an eagle. If you’re a turkey and you want to stay a turkey, stay a turkey.

I’ve got better things to do and better people to do it with.

I probably want to help you but only if you’re an eagle, only if you want to, only if you can. If you want to be a can't, spend your whole life being with can't’s. Be a can't and talk about as a can't. Then don’t.

If you want to do it, you want to make this work. You’ve got to be an eagle. You’ve got to be a warrior, you’ve got to be a lion, you’ve got to be the baddest in the valley. That is easy if you make the choice to do so.

It’s hard if you think about it because thinking about it isn’t making you the money. If you want to do it, Visa card or Mastercard hard close.

Last step, step number nine, hard close. Run it through from the top: active listen, reward, reassure, remind, realign, refrain, contrast, trial close and hard close.

The beauty of this is if you get to the end, “Are you ready to go?” Their reaction is usually, “Yes, here's my information or they give you another objection.”

If they were giving you any more information, they’ll go like, “I don’t know if I have the money for it.” You repeat the exact same formula with their new objection. 

What starts to happen is that they start to realize you’re going to keep doing it. You’re going to keep doing it until they say yes or no. Then they either hang up on you or they decide to step into their future.

It’s one or the other. It’s an amazingly efficient process and I love the fact that I learned it. I love the fact even more that you shared it openly with people.

If they’re smart, they’ll take this and digest it and take it to heart and think about it. If you’re in sales, where can you be using this? How could you be using it better? How can you integrate it into what you’re doing?

That’s the tip of the iceberg from the stuff that I’ve seen you teach from your scripting to the Armor of God to all this. It does take a lot of sales fear away when people have a plan and a formula and some of that philosophy behind it.

It’s not this stale old school sales strategy. They saying, “Here are the things you say and how you say them.” You do enlist a person’s emotion and imagination behind that. It’s definitely powerful.

I want to ask you a question not so much about the sales and the scripting process but the lead generation. Yours may be different. Let’s talk about a lot of the folks that you train and some of these are big corporations.

I don’t want to talk about that like people who have 50-person sales floors necessarily. Although if they have employed your stuff, it would be amazing.

BWB Gulliver | Art Of Sales

Art Of Sales: Your product, your service, or your coaching is for sale. However, you and your self-respect is never for sale, never for any amount of money.


Let’s just say the average consultant, small business owner, a person who’s out there trying to do this and looking for how to get these people on the phone.

You don’t have to go and do a ton of details on this. You’ve got a pretty good sales funnel process where you call the advertising. You get this to work for a relatively cold lead. This is not just hot leads this works for.

I woke up and 40 people had come in having downloaded my book. I have more leads. I have 100 leads more than I can literally get to because I’m constantly training on these interviews.

I’ve done three of these interviews and I’m constantly being interviewed. I hardly ever get time to sell anymore. We have more leads than we need. It’s pissing me off.     

It’s one of those problems that you don’t mind having too much but it’s better than the alternative. What book are they downloading?

The Art of Sales. It’s an amalgam of all of my Facebook posts. My most salient philosophical points and motivational posts.

I never took it very seriously but this multimillionaire friend of mine contacted me. He’s like, “Thank you so much for this book.” I’m like, “What do you mean?” “I am going through this tough time where I had been beaten down badly by this client who was not a good client.

They treated me poorly and I let them and I didn’t draw the line with them. I was on the plane late at night writing proposal to them and I got upset. I’ve got off the computer and I picked up my Kindle and I said, “I’m going to read Gulliver’s book.””

One of the things that says in the book is that you are not for sale. Your product is for sale, your service is for sale. Your coaching is for sale. You are not for sale. Your self-respect is never for sale, never for any amount of money. He fired that client the very next day.

He made room in his business. People say that when God closes a door, he opens a window. That is the biggest load of crap ever. When God closes a door, about 50 more doors open. Bigger doors, better doors with cooler things behind them.

When Johan closed the door on this bad client, the meteoric multi-million dollar rise to success for him has been incredible ever since that moment because he decided to value himself more and make room in his life for people that respected him. That is the core of sales is respecting yourself.

In your training, you teach people not just how to sell. You teach them how to build marketing funnels that generate leads that they can then sell as well. Am I right?

Correct. We are very much in the business of a full end-to-end consulting. Getting clear on who you are, what your goals are, getting clear on who your clients are and what they do. Getting clear on what the message is to them.

Getting clear on how to set that online funnel up to bring you low costs leads and turn them into high-end sales. Then getting clear on what the process is that you’re going to take them through with that product and how to presell that.

Ethically and authentically generating six and seven figures in sales. Selling a product that you care about built from what you’re most passionate about for the people you can most help for the most amount of money.

You can deal with the least amount of people and how have the greatest amount of freedom and passion doing what you love.

Leela is the true genius, the founding mother of the business. The genius, the woman who dragged that out of nothing, out of the desperation of a $25,000 a year temp job, to being a seven-figure business that employs the entire family.

She is far greater than I am. If you like my stuff, Leela is my first and greatest mentor and teacher. She’s incredible. Strategic Anarchy is her business. I’m just the sales end of the business. It’s difficult to describe which is a bad thing for a salesperson.

Leela is the convergence of pop cult art and marketing and sales. She rolls it all together into this incredible different confirmative, authentic, radically honest approach. Leela views herself as being a professional disruptor. Somebody who calls light on the dark places.

Somebody who gets people’s noses out of joints. Someone who challenges and can be abrasive. Her mission is a mission of truth and self-respect. She has made me the man I am today. If you like my stuff, you’d love hers. Check her out as well.

You make an amazing team, that’s for sure. Let’s talk a little bit more about what you’re doing in your business to grow it. This entire conversation so far has been about you helping readers and providing your insight.

I can take the end of the podcast to find out some areas that you’re trying to build upon, maybe a nut you’re trying to crack, a challenge you’re trying to overcome or whatever. See if either myself or anybody reading has any insights, opportunities, connections, contacts or whatever for you.

You’ve told me offline that one of the things you are doing more in business is working with bigger companies. People have sales team and sales floors and scaling up. Is that still the case? Is that one of your big primary goals to take your game to the next level?

I’m not looking to deal with any old faceless corporation that’s raping the world and killing the dolphins. The person I want to work with is somebody who’s probably in mid seven figures to eight who’s a frustrated founding father or mother who is great at what they do.

60% of my niche are women. Somebody who loves their business but has realized that they need to spread themselves further.

I’m sitting in my office in a $2 million or $3 million business. They’ve got a team they’re building inside and they want to know how to motivate, train. Everything they do is they can get their message out there and help the world. They want to know how to make sure that works.

They can’t be doing it themselves. They’ve got a beautiful daughter to bring up. They’ve got a bunch of property empires they’ve got to run. They’ve got stages to be speaking on. They’ve got a whole bunch of things to do. They can’t be the ones pounding the phone anymore.

It’s not that they’re scared of sales and they’re not good at sales. It’s just their business had grown greater than that. It’s bigger than that.

Helping those people create the metrics, create the systems, create the script, create the objections, handle and create the training, create the culture and the team, create the people.

They want to serve them. The warriors in the front line of their business going into battle to spread their word and their message. That’s the person I’m targeting at the very top end.

Guys like you who have such great stuff to offer and maybe you do or don’t have a sales team that you’d like to get better performance and you want to change stuff and get an amazing ROI through that process. That’s the place I’m focusing.

Also, in activities like this, speaking more internationally. Travelling more internationally. Getting on those stages and spreading this message because not everybody who trains sales trains this. A lot of people selling the amazing turd rolling glitter is sales without selling.

I stand against that. In an industry full of people selling turds rolled in glitter, I want people to say that the sales is the real goal, not something to be ashamed of. I want to spread that message. I want more opportunities like this one. I want to speak on your podcast.

Create the media and be the media. Control the eyeballs because if you don’t, then you're always going to be at the mercy. Click To Tweet

I want to come in your training and train your people. I would love to be part of your community and help you up sell this in your forte. I’ll come in and help your people with sales. I can help you make them money and make you look good.

At the very core, it will come back to that guy in that call center, that sales manager, that team leader. That kid on the phone who’s going through the crap I was going through. I want people to help him.

You see yourself in them and you’re like, “I want to help him get out of that.” Are you running into any roadblocks or challenges that you’re looking to overcome? Whether you’re looking for resources or strategies etc. Is there anything like a nut you can’t crack?

I don’t have a can’t attitude, but I do have challenges, everyone does. My biggest thing is we have solved the bootstrapping, street fighting, badass, punk rock, tattooed, confrontative entrepreneurial zealot sub six-figure market very well.

I’ve done a couple great deals with $10 million, $20 million, $30 million companies and got incredible results. For me, it’s finding the connections and transitioning from being the guy who trains bootstrappers and startups, to being the guy who trains those large companies.

I just need to grow up my network for those larger businesses. I’m working with Frank Kern on developing that frustrated founder that we’re talking about and contacting more of those and opening up more networks and opportunities to talk to those guys.

That’s going to be about doing things like what we’re doing. Networking with guys who are connected to those guys and leveraging goodwill and relationships with people who know I can trust already as much as it is about me getting on the phone and calling them or marketing to them per se.

Speaking of that, your best prospects for that  ae probably your former students. Your biggest evangelists, the people who have learned from you. One cool thing is that business people know other business people. It’s like what we’re doing here, we’re continuing this relationship.

Those folks I found can be the levers, the small little hinges that swing big doors. If you haven’t already started to tell this mission to your current and former students, who you’re looking to meet and how they can make the introduction and maybe what’s in it for them.

A lot of times they don’t even need anything. That’s oftentimes what I tell some of my clients. There’s pot of gold sitting right underneath your feet and it’s your client’s.

Those ones who know I can trust you the most because they can oftentimes walk you right into, sometimes it’s a former employer or it’s their husband or wife’s business or something like that.

You may be already doing this so I could be preaching to the choir. Sometimes it’s obvious we don’t even think to do it.

I’m talking about potentially your former students or current ones like, “I’ve never even thought to introduce you to my best friend that owns a company that’s struggling with sales. I’ve never even thought to do that. Thank you for reminding me that I can do that.”

It comes down to vulnerability and positioning to get you past that $1 million mark and the positioning is like, “I’m a badass and I can help you.”

It’s not like taking your need to the marketplace. Brian Tracy says, “Don’t take your needs to the marketplace. Don’t ask your marketplace to help you.” It isn’t that showing vulnerability and saying, “This is what I want. Do you know people like this? Can we help each other?”

I found that since deciding to follow through on this direction that I’ve reached out to multimillion-dollar corporations within my clientele.

They’ve said, “We’ve been waiting for this. We’ve been waiting for you to decide if you wanted to do these things. We have this guy who wants to talk to you. How can we make this happen?”

It’s amazing. I suppose it would be a great lesson for me and being the hard, tough, armored up sales warlord, got me where I am. Being the vulnerable, honest, loving guy who wants to spread his message but is also not too proud to ask for help is going to get me where I want to go.

For anyone reading, that’s a great lesson. If you’re struggling with that because it’s the truth. You can only get so far. I want to build an army. I want to change the world.

I want to take people with me and that means asking for help. It means networking. It means opening up and doing these things.

It’s funny, I got on this call with you and I’ve been offered five opportunities because I post it on my wall. I enjoy doing these interviews. I got this one guy and then four more people offered it to me.

When you put it out there that you love doing something, then all of a sudden everyone is like, “You could be in my podcast. You give good content.” It blew me away.

It also shows we’ve all got so many things going on in our mind. If you don’t put it at the top of somebody’s mind and give them the opportunity to act on it, they may not think about it. We’re Facebook friends, we’re normal friends.

I’ve had this podcast. It’s successful and I’m always looking for a great guest and it just didn’t come to the top of my mind, “I’ve got to ask Gulliver.” When you reached out to me on Facebook like, “How’s it going? We haven’t talked in a while.”

I was like, “I should be asking you. Why did I not think about this earlier beyond the podcast?” It’s not top of people’s minds. Exactly like you said, you got to enlist people and let them know, “I’m available for this if you didn’t know that.”

“I’ll train big companies. I’ll do X, Y, Z.” I tell that to my clients and colleagues all the time. The problem is I don’t take my own advice enough. I don’t do it myself enough.

We’re all the plumber with leaky taps. Sometimes we can’t be in integrity and authenticity always. If I did everything I tell people to do, I’d be way better off than I am. There’s only so much you can do as a single person on your own.

It’s about finding that balance between walking the walk and talking the talk. For me, I’ve been talking a lot. I also want to get walking and do more people.

There are people on this call who are inspired, who want to change the culture, who want to heal an ailing salesforce or build a stronger team of warriors who want more hunters to go out and get them business. Who want to help farmers handle more inbound calls or both.

I’m super happy to help and I’m grateful for the opportunity to have more to do with you, Brad. You’ve always been a champion, a supporter and a friend. I’m grateful to have been part of this with you.

I appreciate it. This is right back at you. I’m going to ask the last question. I ask this with everybody which is one of my only standard question on this show.

Is there anything that you see, whether it’s a trend, opportunity or something that you see where the ball is going that other people are missing? You’re excited about or is there anything that you’re working on.

If there’s not and if you’re just plugging away, that’s cool. I’ve discovered some of the neatest little strategies or people or whatnot by asking this single question.

The biggest thing going on the moment is we’re at the turning point with social media. Things are changing rapidly. The smart money is heading in this direction, but most people are just flapping around like a fish on a jetty out of the water and dying in the open air.

BWB Gulliver | Art Of Sales

The Art of Sales

As Facebook shuts down account after account, Google has already taken this line. This is how the internet is going to be shaped and we say so because we’re Google. It is what we demand of you as an advertiser.

Same thing is happening in Facebook. You’re seeing the Googlefication of Facebook. It benefits big companies who can blow millions of dollars on broad spectrum crap. It will be challenging for anybody who is using landing pages and direct response.

Facebook has made it very clear. Google has made it very clear that people who have ROI based direct response and who can legitimately back it up. It doesn’t matter a bit to them. Our business model is evil as far as they’re concerned.

They’re looking to stamp us off the internet as far as possible. If you look at Twitter, that’s a place you can still do direct response. There are other media you can do that in. What we need to do is innovate. What we need to do is create strategies that don’t rely on other media.

That is the big thing. What you’re doing right now, building content, building your own media, that is the smartest thing you can be doing. The best time to plant that tree is twenty years ago.

That is a big challenge that I’ve seen a lot of people facing. It’s like this was working for so long and my entire business was based upon Facebook marketing and that was it. Now they’re telling me I can’t advertise this.

Like you said, it’s like ROI based marketers. The one who will open up the traffic’s bigots because they can prove we are making positive ROI on this. They don’t want us. They want brands.

Their sales figures have gone through the roof because they’re focusing on people who are spending $1 million a month not people who spend $100,000 a year. Everything old is new again. Dan Kennedy says, “One is an evil number,” and he’s right.

Dan Kennedy says, “Why put all your eggs in one basket?” Dan Kennedy is right. Dan Kennedy says, “Everything old is new again,” and he’s right. You don’t want to be at the mercy of one media source.

My advice is diversify your media and build your own media so that you have your own eyeballs, your own following and you’re going to win. Take people into your own media and your own subscriptions and be the media source so that you’re not dependent.

If everything goes down, Facebook shuts off all avenues in order to make more money with less effect to the advertising for bigger companies. If Google shuts off all the SEO and we’ve seen this happen before with our friends. We’ve seen happen to our clients.

We’ve seen it happen to ourselves with Facebook. Our big message at the moment is create the media and be the media. Control the eyeballs because if you don’t, then you're always going to be at the mercy.

Diversify, have many channels. Have joint ventures. Have podcasts that you’re doing with a lot of people. Have Facebook, Twitter, Google, have several channels that drive all of those channels to your own media, create your own media, be your own media. Inform people, create your own following.

That’s why I asked the questions that I ask. We’ve mentioned this in the beginning. If people want to go down the rabbit hole that is Strategic Anarchy. is your primary site.

You got and the Unbounce page of the Art Of Sales where people can download your book.

You’re getting a lot of leads, but you are open to working with people if they are dedicated to taking their game to the next level. If you are the least bit intrigued by this, go check out Gulliver’s Strategic Anarchy and Leela and know them both.

They’re amazing people as you can tell. They come from the heart on this. I’m not even letting you plug yourself. I’m just plugging you.

The other thing is if you own a company with a sales floor, you would be in tremendous hands. By requesting Gulliver to take a look at what you’re doing and see if you would make a good client.

Think about the upside, if your sales team is doing $1 million, $10 million whatever a year, you add a small percentage to that through some of the things you’ve heard. It will be a windfall profit reap for you.

75% of sales teams don’t ask for the order consistently.

That’s the most important part, ask for the order.

If that’s not happening. I can double or triple your sales. The next step is the five-key objections. Most people abandon on objection number one.

If I can get them to handle all five objections, 200%, 300%, 400%, 500% increase in business orders of magnitude. If I can get them to handle all those objections, I can double, triple, quadruple your sales, literally.

If we just start doing what we’re not doing. In all likelihood your probably not doing it. If you’re a large company, you probably don’t have time to be sitting on them like a chicken on an egg watching. I’d be super happy to talk about that.

If you know a company that could potentially use this. If you’re married to the owner of a business that has a sales team. If you’re the best man in somebody’s wedding who operates a sales team or is a salesperson themselves. Share this podcast with them.

Share this podcast to the world. Share this with them, let them know that Gulliver is available, maybe somebody you should talk to don’t plan on having some objections because he’s going to hammer him down.

Seek out his help. I’ve been through a portion of his training. It is amazing and you’ve heard it here. Some high value IP that Armor of God stuff. Go use it.

For everybody else out there who has gotten value out of this and wants more. If you have any questions. If you have any advice that you like little old me to give you, send me an email to

I’m happy to give you a second opinion on anything you’re doing whether it’s your marketing strategy, sales strategy.

Anything you’re doing, if I can’t help you there is a good chance I know somebody like Gulliver here who can. I’ve got a lot of great past guests.

I’m a tremendous resource whether we’re working together directly or not. I am here to help other business owners improve their lives, their business. That’s why I do this show. I do it for fun and I do it to have great conversations with people I like about topics I love. That’s why I do this.

Share it on social media, spread the word, talk about it at parties like, “I just heard a great Bacon Wrapped episode.” That’s how you pay me back. Leave a review on iTunes about how wonderful Gulliver and I were. I want to thank every single one of you guys reading.

Gulliver, I want to thank you. I’m so glad we reconnected and did this. It’s been a lot of fun and hopefully you generate some more exposure for you.

I enjoyed these opportunities. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart and from Leela.

Give her my love, absolutely.

I want to thank you for promoting me and for giving me the opportunity to help these guys reading because I know that there are people going to make some extra money and help grow their business using that material.

I’m super happy to be friends with anyone who wants to come and check me out. I live on Facebook, so I’m super happy if you want to chat, ask me questions. Thank you so much, Brad, for having me on. I appreciate it. I love to do more with you

Thank you. See you next time.

Important Links:

About the Guest: Gulliver Giles

BWB Gulliver | Art Of SalesGulliver has been described as “the best sales trainer on the planet.” He's definitely one of the most UNIQUE, which will make sense when you hear about his “Sword of Sales” system and his famous “Armor of God” objection handling system have revolutionized the sales industry – in the best possible way.

Gulliver’s mission is to re-educate the world about sales and salespeople – his firm belief is that, despite its reputation, sales is NOT evil, and that real salespeople sell from a place of love, not manipulation.

When you listen to his episode, Gulliver will actually reveal his entire formula for handling sales objections that he terms “The Armor Of God,” which is normally only taught to his private clients at a very high price, but he gives to us for FREE!

Love the show? Subscribe, rate, review, and share!
Join the Bacon Wrapped Business Community today: 

Got A Question Or Comment For Brad?