Bacon Wrapped Business With Brad Costanzo
BWB Gallent | Digital Marketing

Mr. Hyper Growth Matt Gallant Reveals What’s Working Now In Digital Marketing


Matt Gallant is on the show so we could geek out about what's working now in the world of digital marketing. As a fanatical split-tester, he has tested well over 10,000 different marketing ideas.

He currently has about 200-300 tests going on (opt-ins, sales letters, order pages, up-sells, etc.) and he has two businesses that have been around for more than a decade that are doing a healthy seven figures each. His most successful business last year was supplements – fundamental health products (enzymes, probiotics, vitamins, minerals, organic protein powder, etc.).

Matt’s major focus now is on becoming a better entrepreneur, businessman, team builder, and process-builder. He shares his hiring process, how to use Facebook as a power tool, relying on harmonization for marketing, and so much more.

Some Topics We Discussed Include:

  • Hiring Employees (Copywriters)
  • Facebook has the Power! Use these tools to tap into that power.
  • Trick to increase your ROI from remarketing
  • Harmonization – a foundational principle of marketing.
  • Metrics
  • Additional Info

To learn more about Matt and fundamental health products such as enzymes, probiotics, vitamins, minerals, organic protein powder, etc. Visit

About The Guest: Matt Gallant

BWB Gallent | Digital MarketingAs a fanatical split-tester, he has tested well over 10,000 different marketing ideas. He currently has about 200-300 tests going on (opt-ins, sales letters, order pages, up-sells, etc.) and he has two businesses that have been around for more than a decade that are doing a healthy 7-figures each.

His most successful business last year was supplements – fundamental health products (enzymes, probiotics, vitamins, minerals, organic protein powder, etc.).

Matt’s major focus now is on becoming a better entrepreneur, businessman, team builder and process-builder.

Mr. Hyper Growth Matt Gallant Reveals What's Working Now In Digital Marketing

I'm interviewing Matt Gallant, who's down in Panama. In April 17, 2009 to be exact, our mutual friend, Mark Hardy, who is an expert in PR, invited me to something called his Hyper Growth Formula Workshop that his friend Matt Gallant was hosting in Dallas, Texas.

I didn't know many people. I had only been in the whole world of online marketing for about a year. I had some success but I was still pretty green. I was at this workshop maybe fifteen or twenty of us.

I know Keith Baxter was there, you, Claude and a handful of other people, I don't really remember a lot of the others. I do remember that as I'm sitting here looking at my seven-year-old notebook. I've got about 60 pages of handwritten notes from this workshop that he did.

I threw away a lot crap over the years but as I was going through this, I was blown away by how relevant a lot of the strategies and tactics that he talked about back then are still are.

I don't think there's anything in here that is out of date. The only thing that's not in here is stuff about Facebook advertising. Matt, welcome to Bacon Wrapped Business.

It’s great to be here. I’m looking forward to talking about marketing, copywriting optimization, doing deals wherever our conversation goes.

What are we not going to talk about?

We're not going to talk about romance.

This is all one-sided conversation, but we're not going to talk about romance because that is what we do privately late at night.

We've been friends for quite a while. I don't want to go into this huge long back story like how you get started, “Tell me about your journey.” I know a lot of that stuff. Let's get into some fun stuff. How's Panama, first of all? I know it’s where you live. You've lived down there for how long?

I've been here for twelve years. It's hot as balls and it's hot even to our standards.

It’s like brutal?

It’s humid like 90%.

You have to come up to San Diego. This is when you want to get out of Panama during the summer. I imagine Panama may be amazing during the summer, but I have a feeling that it's better during the rest of the year.

It's best for summer, January, February, March. For winter, the humidity goes up and we get more rain. It's definitely not San Diego weather, which in my opinion could be the most perfect weather in the world.

What has been going on? Screw the back story. First of all, tell people about your current business, the experience in business, products that you sold, things you've done that make you worthy of being wrapped in bacon?

My claim to fame is I've tested well-over 10,000 different ideas scientifically. I'm talking split-testing. I'm a fanatical split-tester. If you would log into my split-testers, you would see about 200 or 300 different things being tested.

I have a lot of different websites. On every website, I'm always testing everything, the opt-in, the sales letter, the order page, the up-sells, etc.

I have a publishing company in the music space, which has been around for over a decade. One of my claim to fame is I have two businesses that have been around for more than a decade that are doing a healthy seven-figures each. That's a real accomplishment.

Most companies, including most of the friends that you and I have, don't have companies that have been around for ten years.

That's a lifetime in internet marketing terms.

BWB Gallent | Digital Marketing

Rocket Fuel: The One Essential Combination That Will Get You More of What You Want from Your Business

That's something I’m proud of because I've had to evolve and grow and I change things along the way. Especially in the last few years, and this could be a great topic of conversation to dive into, is that marketing has changed significantly.

It's done a 180, maybe a 480, maybe a 720, and this has changed a lot. I've had to retool things and upgrade things. That's been great. My companies do close to eight figures and we're trying to crack out.

Which of your businesses is the biggest cash cow? Which one is doing the best?

The supplement business, the guitar business and I have a publishing company in the music space, so that did very well as well. In terms of revenue, that was the supplement business.

What kind of supplement are you selling? I know a little bit about it.

We sold things that we consider fundamental health products like enzymes, probiotics, vitamins, minerals. We sold an organic protein.

Are you partners with Wade on that?

Him and I have been partners for a few years.

Wade and I were hanging out at Anthony Trister’s wedding down in Cancún. It’s hard to encapsulate you. When I think of you, I think of crazy, mad, testing, like Hyper Growth.

Hyper Growth Formula is exactly what you talked about. I'm blown away by how you keep everything straight, organizationally, how you manage all those tests, how you manage all of the things that you do and that you've got multiple businesses.

I know it's hard enough for me to manage the few things that I've got and keeping my head on straight. Where do you spend most of your time? What part of your business?

It's pretty well evenly split. Then on top of that, I started blogging.

They’re big blogs, really good writing. Is that in

That's it. I also do what you do where I'll do consulting deals, where I get a piece of the pie. It’s split all over the place. I write in the morning and then I'll have two days a week where it's meetings. We're using Traction, which you just interviewed Gino Wickman’s partner from Rocket Fuel.

We do Gino's system which is Traction, which has made all the difference in the world. I cannot sing the praises loud enough of how impactful that's been in terms of organization, in terms of how the teams are excited about it.

I could literally talk about it for easily a few hours. That's helped me get more effective. The other thing that I do, which again you just interviewed the guy about this, is I have integrators for each business. My opinion is one solid visionary can keep probably five to ten integrators busy.

Let me just refresh people. I interviewed the co-author of the book, Rocket Fuel, which is about the relationship between the visionary, usually the founder of a business and the integrator, who you can think of it as the operations person, sometimes the CEO.

It's the person who gets shit done and it's the executor. Usually a good visionary is not the best integrator and vice versa. When you put the two together, it's like Rocket Fuel.

The book does a great job of explaining not just the importance of having one but how to have one, how to manage that relationship.

If you haven't read that episode on the show, go find it. It probably one of the most previous ones to this. I wanted to give that as you're talking about integrator, so that people can go, “That's what he's talking about.”

That's something I'd figured out about years ago. I was hitting the wall and I was doing too much, I was trying to do too much integrator work. I was like, “I need to find guys that are solid at executing because first of all, I don't like it. I suck, I'm not good at micromanaging.

I'm going to do what I'm best at, which is strategy, marketing optimization.” That's where I bring home the bacon.

Where have you gone about finding your integrators because it's not the easiest thing to find? There's a lot of searching and sometimes it’s luck and it's grooming and developing them. What's worked for you?

One solid visionary can keep five to ten integrators busy. Click To Tweet

It's been organic and it's been finding good people. It's a question that I asked you to ask Mr. Rocket Fuel. In the last year or two, instead of partnering up with them, I'm just going to hire people. I feel that integrators are a hireable. I've got two guys that are absolute studs and they can handle my output.

One guy I found in Cult of Copy and another guy I found way back when at Eben Pagan’s Guru Mastermind. We were in one of the groups and he failed with his internet marketing business. He failed his business. He was such a great guy and he's just a natural integrator. That's how I picked up that guy.

We're going down a fun rabbit trail here because it's not about the whole Rocket Fuel thing, but this is great. I love the fact that you said that's integral to your business and I want to continue down.

When you're going to hire with the integrator’s skillset, do you have a system or a process? Do you have them take a personality profile? Do you wing it? What's your hiring process for that?

I've got a deep hiring process, but let's get into it because I think people can get some good value from it.

This stuff is as valuable if not more than fun little optimization tricks because this is what real entrepreneurs do.

This is what I've been spending more and more of my time on. That was a big a-ha like, “Do I need to go to another marketing event to learn one little tactic that I don't know?” The answer is no.

What I need to focus on is become a better entrepreneur, a better businessman, a better team builder, a better process builder, that's my next level is. I’ve been putting a lot of energy to that. To go back to your question. First of all, let's say we want a hire webmaster.

Upwork is a good place to look for people. Let's just use Upwork as an example. To tap into every pool you've got, including your personal pool on your Facebook page, if I'm looking for somebody, I'll hit every avenue I've got.

If I'm looking for a copywriter, I'll hit Cult of Copy. I've hired four guys out of there, which is called Ontario's Group. I've found four copywriters out there that has been great.

Let's go through the process. First step is to filter out the obvious bad ones. Upwork is great for this because you can use a scoring system. I want guys with a lot of work, a lot of hours built. That's a great way to get rid of the lower level stuff.

Then, if I'm looking to hire one position. I'll start with about 50 to 100 candidates. I'll send that round one, which is going to be a real good job description, an exciting job description, use your copywriting skills and make it sound enticing.

From there, I might get 50 replies, 60 replies. I've got 40 gone. Out of the 60 replies, probably twenty are going to give me replies that are bad. I'm using every single piece of communication that they give me as indicators of, “Am I going to even invest time for this or not?”

How is it being judged?

I'm always filtering. If somebody can't communicate well, they're out. I don't care what position it is. It's so critical for us, this is one of our core values. I'll probably get rid of twenty. I'm down to 40.

Out of the 40, probably 30 will show up to the interview. Out of the 30, there are probably five that don't have a mic, don't have a camera. I get rid people for all those things on the process.

Out of the 25, probably eight or ten do a good interview. I'll give all of those guys Doofus tests. This is critical. Let's say customer support, I'll give them three angry customers and I see what their reply and I judge them based on that.

Same thing when I hire a copywriter. I'll say, “Here's a piece of content. Write an email about that content.” I'll give them a three-minute video clip where somebody's talking about something. I'll say, “Write an email about that clip.”

Right there going through the Doofus test, only 25% or 20% passed that. No matter what position it is, I can eliminate a massive chunk of it.

I'm down to maybe two guys or three guys, which I always like to hire say three guys for one position. Then based on their performance, I'm going to keep one or two and one guy might quit.

That's the step by step process, but I think the Doofus test is a big one that people need to do. Then when somebody I feel is a good member of the team, there's an incredible system that I think blows away Kolbe, DiSC, Briggs and Myers.

I think it's better than all of these. It’s something we've been using more and more and it's called

BWB Gallent | Digital Marketing

Digital Marketing: In the early part of building a business, marketing is the key.


I’ve heard of that. I don't know much about it and I am a big proponent and self-confessed junkie for these good personality profiling.

It breaks down way more attributes. Not only that, once they have your data, you only need to do the test once, but they can take your basic attributes and then overlay that on top of various positions.

For example, senior leader, salesman, middle management and because different positions require different qualities and different character assets. They can overlay your attributes on top of those positions.

Let's say you have a team of six people that have done the test. They can overlay everybody's strengths and tell you as a team, as a company, you're missing this. It’s a lot more powerful than anything else I've done. I've done pretty much all of them.

Caliper is much more for them, it's for the people you're hiring. It's not necessarily for you like you take your own test or no?

We do it all. I do my test, they do their test. It helps me understand myself better and it helps me understand them better.

Is there one test like a pre-employment assessment or something?

It's one test and everybody does that one test. It breaks you down into maybe fifteen different attributes or twenty attributes. Also, you tell them the role you're playing and it's going to take that data and tell you based on your attributes you're strong at strategy, you’re not strong at strategy, you're strong at leading change, things like that.

What does that cost roughly per person?

It's around $350 per person and then if you prepay, it gets cheaper.

Are these the ones when you've narrowed it down, you've got your three top people and then you do this? You're not just giving this to or you’re just considering this? Is it once they're on your team and starting?

Correct, once I’ve down to two guys and I've been working with those two guys for let's say four weeks, either I'm going to keep those two guys full-time or I'm going to keep the one guy at that point, then we get them to do Caliper.

I want to say one thing, if your business is in the seven-figures and you're growing and you want to build a team, hire an HR person. What I described that entire process for one hire, it probably takes somebody 30 hours to do it properly.

The only piece that I'm involved at this point will be the final interviews, which we might do two or three interviews. The final interview or two, I'll be involved there and that's it. The rest of it is outsourced because it's such a big-time suck.

One of my close friends, who's got a pretty successful business and that's one of the things that he had said. One of the first hires he makes, especially if you're a solo entrepreneur, is to hire a good personal assistant. It's not just a little VA but somebody who's good who understands your business.

Put them in charge early on of HR. Their primary thing besides the other tasks is to understand the roles you're looking for and handle all that. Then migrate that out to finding people who have a real experience in this HR area.

It's a topic that I've been toying with myself. I've never personally built a big team for myself. I've always been small or nimble working with contractors, outsourcers, a handful of people, employees in the past but never a big one. I've realized that it's kept me from growing.

Although I don't have the desire to grow and manage a huge team, it's one of those areas that in order to get to the next level, that I want to be at.

You're doing what you said is concentrating on talent acquisition development, team building management and it's a totally different mindset, skillset than marketing strategies.

When you start getting close to eight-figures, this is the game. In the early part of building a business, marketing is the key. Then it starts shifting into team.

Even later on which I've never hit but I believe that the next level, the next big thing once you start getting maybe around $50 million beyond, then it becomes about culture, because the culture is what the team uses to perform and to guide itself.

That's my understanding of business at the current time. I'll tell you, once I hit $100 million, I'll come back and we'll talk about it.

Integrators are a hireable. Click To Tweet

Let's talk about some of the things that are working now. You're always doing some cool stuff. Let's share some sizzle and hot business advice that's guaranteed to make these people fat, profit.

Let's talk about the changes. Let's talk about what used to work and what doesn't work. That's a perfect segue into what is hot.

First of all, when I started, I got trained by John Carlton, Gary Halbert. I flew to Miami, spent some time in Halbert's apartment, got spray tan on his balcony, buy some Asian assistant.

I was trained by those guys. The style of copy that I learned and they taught was what I would describe as aggressive, hype-driven, big bold promises and that's why it works.

I think at one point, Gary Halbert was probably the best guy in the world at that style. In the last few years, everything has changed.

Everything has changed starting with the Facebook slaps, which have been happening. Before that, the Google slaps starting in 2008. They had 800,000 advertisers on that point of year and it’s kept going.

Facebook now is arguably even stricter than Google. What's happening is they don't want claims. A lot of that stuff is happening from pressure from the FTC, which gave Google $1 billion fine. They probably fined Facebook as well.

FTC has gone after the credit card companies to put pressure. Now, the merchant accounts are also enforcing this and policing this.

It's not just Google, it’s not just Facebook, it's the merchant accounts, it's just everywhere. The bottom line is we cannot make the big crazy claims and the strong killer edgy power-driven copy that we used to. It just doesn't fly.

First of all, you're going to get banned, you're going to get shut down and that's the bottom line. Because of that, the copy that is working now is first of all content has become the king.

I think people used to say content is king. The content is not only king for SEO and things like that, it's also king for conversions. It's clean, it’s effective in terms of building influence. Then later on if you can get them to opt-in, then you can use some stronger copy of your products.

What we tend to lead is content first and then persuasion later. Before, it was 100% persuasion in terms of copy. Now, it's more 50%, 60%, 70% influence and then finish with the persuasion.

Even with affiliates, I'll give you something that has tripled our results with affiliates. We start the affiliate promos with an interview. We've done the test. It tripled the sales compared to just going to a sales letter out of the gate.

What we do is we fly in whoever the face of the business is. They have a sit-down, the classic interview style and they talk. That’s the first thing that the affiliate sends out and after that then we'll send them to the sales letters.

What we're seeing again is building influence is now as critical or if not more critical than the persuasion side.

People have the ability because of social media that was in its infancy in 2009 when we were talking about this. The ability to search out things about you, about the claims. You can make big claims these days.

It's much harder because people see through the crap much quicker. They start to talk about you more and people started to hear it all. It's such a skeptical market now.

This is a good segue. Every market now is level four, level five and that's using a Eugene Schwartz framework. In fact, I'm going to create a course called Level Five Marketing.

It's all going to be level five strategies. It's part of what I described. Even on the product side, we have to start pushing things into an extraordinary level.

When I started, Dan Kennedy used to say, “Good enough is good enough.” I embraced that and that was a powerful mindset for launching things and staying out of perfectionism.

People talk and the standard keeps getting raised. If you're going to release a crappy info product or a crappy piece of software, you're going to get decimated.

Because people will talk and they love to talk. People love to gossip and it used to be people would only talk if there were comments on your YouTube video. Now, it's all over social media.

BWB Gallent | Digital Marketing

Digital Marketing: One of the great tricks to increasing your ROI from remarketing is delay the dropping of the pixel by 15, 30, 45 seconds.


The need to balance, avoiding perfectionism and just get it out and improve it, but don't just release a turd and try to oversell it and not deliver. You won't be in business for very long or you'll be constantly putting out new products because the market won't tolerate that anymore.

I know Perry Belcher. I've heard him say a few times and I quote him a lot on this, which is it's never been harder to sell somebody the first time, to get the first dollar out of somebody's pocket. It's never been easier to continue to sell them.

It’s because of all the various touch points, but also the fact that there's so little trust in the marketplace. When customers do find somebody they trust, they latch on because they want to, because it's so noisy out there.

One of the things that's working like you said whether it's affiliate or whenever you're doing paid media. I know you sell physical products, you sell information products, you sell both.

Are you spending more on Google or more on Facebook? Or more somewhere else that are the native ads and all this other fun stuff?

It’s used to be primarily Adwords. I've always been an Adwords dude. In the last few years, it's almost 50/50. Facebook is so powerful. I think as a marketer, we've never had anything remotely close to the level of power that Facebook has. It's sick.

On Facebook, are you doing an ad to a piece of content? Are you doing an ad straight to a sale? Does it depend on what you're doing if it's an eCommerce product or an info?

First of all, if you're starting with a new account, you want to start building up that positive relevancy score. It's very smart, very intelligent to start sending people to articles and videos that are not selling for the first two or three shots.

If people start hitting that screw-you button on your ads and you don't have that relevancy score built, that's how a lot of people have lost their count.

It's not just the count, the claims and stuff, people themselves can get you thrown out if they feel that you're selling crap. Even if you're not selling crap, some people think you’re selling crap.

You want to start with content, “Give, give, give.” For maybe the first three campaigns or the three pieces that you put on at first, great idea to start driving people to a blog post or to a blog post video and of course, you could remark it, which is smart.

If people don't know this, one of the great tricks to increasing your ROI from remarketing is delay the dropping of the pixel by 15, 30, 45 seconds.

We drop it after about fifteen and that's increased our ROI significantly. Some people drop it after 45. It'll increase your ROI even more from your remarketing because you're going to get rid of the people that bounced and said, “I don't like this.”

You're not just dropping it sloppy because not everybody is good. If they get off right away, they just maybe clicked on your ad for one reason. Maybe they were snooping. I snoop on people's ads all the time to see what's up.

By the way, do you know Wilco de Kreij? Have you ever heard of or Connectio? He came out with a demo for JVs. He's releasing a software called ConnectRetarget.

It's got some cool tactics where it's outside of Facebook, there's a dashboard that's good. He allows you to do everything, to drop those pixels in a way as effective as that but way easier to manage and you're not even dealing inside Facebook.

If anybody else wants more information, you can't buy it but you can go to or Those are two of Wilco’s software. He also did an episode with me. Shout out to Wilco. That’s a fun little tool that you'll like.

Dropping at pixel, delaying the pixel, sending the content, what did you call it? Getting the positive relevancy score. This is on your Facebook page in your ad account like your ads.

Every ad gets a relevancy score which contributes to your entire account’s relevancy score. If that gets too low, you're done, you’re cooked. Facebook basically pushes the big black X button and you're out of there.

The reason you want to drive people to content, if you look at a lot of smart markers, that's what they do. There's nothing being sold. On that landing page, at the end of the article, have a link that goes to your bribe or to your sales letter whatever. That's fine, but still the main piece of content should rock.

You do that three times and then after that we tend to go to opt-in pages. I'm going to talk about a couple of things. Here's some tactical stuff that we found works. Obviously tests because what worked for me might not work for you. It's all about execution.

Here's some stuff that on one funnel literally I increased the conversion, the visitor value 6X from what it was before. When I came in, it was opt-in, write to the sales letters. Somebody would opt-in and you would just drive them.

Building influence is now as critical, if not more critical, than the persuasion side. Click To Tweet

What were you selling?

It was a fitness product.

Is it an info product or a physical?

Info. The first big thing we did was we added a piece of text. This piece of text increased conversion significantly.

I'm paraphrasing here, but the text basically said, “The bribe is on its way to your inbox. Check in a few minutes. While you're waiting, why don't you read about this amazing product that I have that can help you do X, Y and Z?”

I'm going to go in a little tangent. Another foundational principle of marketing that I feel is as foundational as persuasion and influence is called harmonization.

Harmonization domination, I remember that was page one of the Hyper Growth Formula.

I've perfected that and we can go into that tangent because it's so foundational, it’s critical. Here's the harmonization. If people opt in and you're expecting the Costanzo bacon bribe but you sent them to a sales letter and there's no mention of that bacon bribe. They're going to be like, “This is a lie.”

I hate that. When you opt in and it's like, “Buy my stuff.”

It’s dissonance. The opposite of harmonization is dissonance. It’s noise, it’s a disconnect, it's like this guy's a liar. That helped. Then we took that to another level by adding a video that basically said the same thing that beat that, that beat just having the text on top.

Basically, it’s a welcome video, “Thank you for opting in. The bacon bribe is on its way to your inbox. Please let me know if you'll love it. I think you'll love it. Also please whitelist this email.” We did that. That improved conversions a little bit.

If they're on Gmail, we show a little video of how to do that. That's in the video. Those are little tweaks that you can do. Then that's on top of an article.

Below the video below is an article usually the three keys to X, Y and Z or the three things to avoid, those are good formats. You're going to have the article and at the end of the article, then that goes to the sales letter.

Adding all this stuff before the sales letter 6X the amount of money we were making, which was probably the most shocking test of that year, which was a couple years ago.

We found similar things on other things. The very least, we found that adding that video before they go to the sales letter, thanking them, acknowledging the bribe, telling them it's on its way, telling them to whitelist improve conversions. That's a great thing that everybody can contest.

It doesn't go for the sale. It's almost like dating. If you see an attractive woman and you ask her out on a date and then the first day, the minute you pick her up you're like, “You're ready to have sex?”

It's like when you pull up to her door and she’s like, “I thought we were going on a date. I thought we were going to get to know each other. I thought we were going to wine and dine.” Then you take her on a date, take her on another date, you get to know each other before you ask for the fun stuff.

It's very similar and I think a lot of people end up rushing it because they're in a hurry to get to the sale, they’re in a hurry to monetize. You're right, the market is very skeptical these days and they see through this crap.

If you're brand spanking new especially, you've never purchased an information product before, maybe it works but taking these extra steps goes a long way. I love the strategy there.

Are there any strategies out there that you've done that would almost pain you to reveal here on the air? It’s the one you would almost be like, “I can't believe that Brad pulled this out of me.”

I'll give you one. It does pain me to reveal this. Here's one thing, it has worked on every betting like 95% as a split-test, anything that bets that high, which means we've tested in twenty sites. In other words, it's going to win about 95% of the time based on the quality of your execution.

What you do is go on a green screen and it's going to be a white screen, whether a green screen, white screen if it's a green screen chroma key it white. Tell your video editor that you don't know what it means.

BWB Gallent | Digital Marketing

Digital Marketing: Congruency is one of the keys to harmonization, relevancy, and authenticity.


You're going to film on the order page instead of having, “I want Brad's ultimate bacon secrets,” and you got all that copy written out. Instead of doing that, you're going to have a video.

This is painful to reveal. We've been able to increase our customer value, lead value, visitor value whatever you want to call it, 40%, 50% which has been incredibly massive.

What we do is we've created the craziest guarantee in the industry and that's not BS. It's the craziest guarantee in industry and I'll go through the script.

Basically, the video again is me or Claude or whoever the talent is, breaking down the guarantee. On the order page show, people hit it and it's a very short video. It's about 60 seconds to 90 seconds.

It looks blended into the page because we're going to go white on white. We found that makes a big difference for some reason. If it's any other color or it's too big, it seems to drop conversion.

It's not very big, maybe 400×300 or even 300×250, whatever the size is. The script goes something like this and I'm going to focus on the guarantee part of script. “I'm going to offer you what is by far the craziest guarantee in the industry.

If you buy Brad's ultimate bacon secrets, you're going to get fifteen DVDs jam-packed with the ultimate bacon tactic strategies and tricks.

If there's any part of these DVDs that you don't like, just ship the DVD that you didn't like, keep the ones you love and you'll still get a full refund, but wait it gets even crazier.

I'm going to pay for the shipping both ways and I'm going to give you 365 days to make up your mind. You get a full 365 days to get a 100% refund even if you didn't like one DVD and you keep the rest.” Basically, that's the gist of the guarantee.

You're paying shipping. Free shipping there and if you want to send it back, I'll pay for your shipping and a year-long guarantee. That’s awesome.

If you’ve got a product with ten components and they only shipped one component back, you give them a 100%.

What you find obviously is that few people ever ship something back?

Correct. Our refund rate is a very respectable 4.5%. There's another thing too. This was an evolution to get to this point. We're probably talking over 100 tests to get to that.

Even in the early parts, even if you don't have a crazy guarantee, just taking your order page guarantee and doing a text overlay video, just basically you got a video and you're talking through the copy that's on your order page.

That was about a 15%, 20% bump compared to having text and especially if they've seen you on video. If you got a VSL that's going to order page, that's a good example of harmonization.

The same tone, the same song is being continued because they're used to seeing and hearing you on video and then they go and see you and hear you’re on video again. That's a good little example of the harmonization.

It pains you to reveal it but I guarantee many people won't even take that extra step to do it. It's true, the people who take these extra steps are the ones that get the Hyper Growth. The harmonization is important to that.

I've heard a lot of people refer to it as congruency, between your ad and your landing page and your order form and everything that it should have a congruent feel to it. You don't want to have a completely different styling everywhere you go because then people get confused.

Let's go deeper into it. Congruency is one of the keys to harmonization, relevancy and authenticity. Those are three of the foundational pieces. What you described is one great example, but let's keep going.

Relevancy, which means that the product is relevant to the group of people that you're targeting for segmenting is another big piece that most people miss.

If you're not segmenting, you're screwed. We all have to segment. Based on that segmentation, then we have to give people the relevant content, emails, offers, products. Those are all examples of harmonization.

You're playing the right song for the right crowd. If I'm at a heavy metal show and the best electronic DJ shows up, he's going to get mauled and vice versa. Metallica shows up at Burning Man, they're going to get laughed right out of the desert.

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You have to be playing the right song for the right crowd and that's foundational to harmonization. What you talked about is another big piece, which is you have to have the right ad copy that's harmonized, that's congruent to the landing page.

A lot of people miss that. If we went out there and analyzed 1,000 ads, I'm willing to bet that 800 or 900 of them aren't even doing that.

The ad is saying something that's not even on the landing page. Sometimes it's there and it's not 100%. Matching that up is most often the pay raise like literally saying what the headline is on your landing page in your ad will quite often boost response.

You have to say the headline in the ad and then have the same headline on the landing page, right?

Correct. That's a very simple tactic that you can increase the harmonization. Then it continues and what we just talked about is a perfect example.

They want that bacon bribe, they enter their name and your email, they go on the next page and there's no bacon bribe. It's like, “Screw you.”

A few years ago, there are a lot of fitness offers like the one unusual secret. I was crushing it. You would watch the video and there was no unusual secret.

You want to avoid all that. Unusual secrets are awesome. Make sure they're unusual and make sure it's a secret. Make sure that most people are generally surprised.

After they hit that Thank You page where you want to have that Thank You video and also a bribe. Then you're going to drive them to a sales letter, which should also be harmonized with the train of thought that you're going on.

For example, if I'm selling an Adwords product, I better have an Adwords bribe. Having a bribe about Facebook pay-per-click, it probably is not going to work to sell that Adwords product.

You’ve got to harmonize the product, the sales letter, the Thank You page of the opt-in page and the ad. All five of those things need to be playing the same tune. If we analyze 1,000 funnels, most of them don't do that.

I've noticed that and I've also noticed that it's not as easy to do. Sometimes you want to slap some stuff together and get it out there.

Taking the time to go back through and not just looking at the copy and looking at that, but going for the feel of the customer’s journey. How does it feel to them? Does it feel off kilter? Does it feel disjointed?

I was doing a consulting call earlier and one of the things were talking about is some basic conversion strategies on her website just basically. I was like, “I'm not talking about colors and this, that in the other.

If somebody comes to your website, they're asking themselves three questions.” I got this I think from Mac Labs. I can't take total credit for it but it's, “Where am I? What can I do here? Why should I do it?”

Understanding that journey that's going on in the customers head and if you're doing it congruently where all of the styling and all of the messaging is in harmony, it makes things so much easier.

What are some cool tools or resources that you're using these days? Are you still using the software, what was it called?

Gold Lantern. By the way, it's becoming a real powerhouse visually and other things. Let's talk about metrics. I think it's an area that most marketers and entrepreneurs are incredibly weak. It's a good segue into Gold Lantern.

It's the most important thing, but it's hard to get right and it's no fun to look at especially if your metrics are not where you want them to be.

Let's talk about simplifying it. I'm going to simplify it into what I think is the most simple, powerful, all-encompassing number. A lot of people look at, “What's my average customer value? How many months do they stay on?” and all this stuff, which complicates the bottom line.

The number that you should be obsessed with and tracking is visitor value. Visitor value encompasses all of it. It's simple. If you made $1 million in sales and you had 500,000 unique visitors come to your website, you made $2.00 per visitor. It's that simple.

The next level is to track visitor value for every traffic source. What is a visitor worth from YouTube? What's a visitor worth from Facebook? What's a visitor worth from Google on the organic side? All of these traffic sources are going to have radically different visitor values. Why is that important?

BWB Gallent | Digital Marketing

Digital Marketing: Pay attention to trends, cryptocurrencies, and blockchains because they can change how we operate financially in the future.


I'm going to give you some examples. In one of my companies and this is actually common by the way, the traffic that we get from YouTube is on a visitor value worth more than double everything else. It’s worth double Facebook, double Adwords, you name it, it’s double that.

Based on that, we're doubling down, tripling down on YouTube like we're going crazy. It's the most profitable traffic source that we can do. We're pumping out three videos a day for that channel plus we're looking to hire more people. You can make smart decisions if you have this information.

The point is that it's incredibly valuable. I saw the same thing. I did Elliott Hulse’s marketing from Strength Camp for a couple years and the visitor value from YouTube was the highest, higher than anything else.

YouTube traffic rocks and you can make decisions. If you want to play the pay-per-click game whether it's Facebook or Adwords, you cannot play that game. Don't even think about playing that game unless you can track to a very precise level the visitor value.

You got no chance, you got no hope and that's why we built the tool. We built called Gold Lantern and Gold Lantern tracks the visitor value over time. Not only do we know what the visitor value is.

We know what it is at every time slice from 24 hours, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, 6 months, 12 months, 24 months and we see that grow.

It allows us for an example to have the mindset of, “If I breakeven in 30 days, we're happy because we know that after 90 days were doubling our money.”

Most advertisers won't do that. They'll launch the campaign, they're not making money right away, they're like, “Shut that down.” We're like, “That's fine, if we're close to breaking even, after 30 days, we know we're going to make two, three times your money over time.”

If people want to check out Gold Lantern, where do they go?

Just go to and send me a note and we'll talk.

Is that not something that's out there like for everybody to just stumble across and sign up?

It is still in beta. By the way, it's not just a tracker. It's a full-on pay-per-click manager. We have Facebook, Adwords and it's become a powerhouse. I'll have to give you another demo one of these days, but the bottom line is it's in beta.

We do have some paying customers and we're not fully advertising it. I realized that a minimum viable product is not enough. We need a minimum lovable product.

The difference is you can have a bland cookie. That's the minimum viable product. What we need is a cookie with the Cookie Monster face pasted on top of it.

What about any other tools out there or resources, whether they’re services, providers? This is the fun stuff that people can check out.

Probably the marketing thing I've been the most excited about and it's not a tool per se. It’s the methodology and that's Ryan Levesque’s, ASK survey methodology. It's powerful and we're starting to implement it and already it’s paying off.

I’ve got to give kudos to him. We were segmenting. You were at the event and we talked about some edition back then.

His survey methodology including the open-ended questions and the calls, it's giving us insights that we didn't have. We were guessing and I can't say for sure yet but I think it's going to increase our visitor value by 30%, 40% 50%.

Ryan was on the show a long time ago. I was running segmented survey funnels for years. I think I started my first one back in 2010 or something. Ryan's got a cool way that he added a lot of different insight into that, more of a scientific methodology.

Is there anything, whether it's trends, whether it's anything you're excited about that maybe a lot of people aren't talking about like, “You're Canadian. Can you see where the puck is going on?”

Some things to pay attention are trends, cryptocurrencies, blockchains. People mostly have heard of it, most people are ignoring it. I'm not telling people drop some coin and investing that. Pay attention because it's going to change how we operate.

That's like the whole Bitcoin and derivatives of that. Are you taking any Bitcoin payment or any cryptocurrency payment on any of your sites at the moment? I know some sites to do that.

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No, we've been wanting to do that. I have invested and I traded. If you're a trader, it's great for that. AI is going to change the world. Those are trends that everybody should pay attention to.

I am excited about cryptocurrencies. It's going to be the next major shift. It could be as significant as the internet in a lot of ways.

I agree with you on it completely, I should do a total episode on that. What about some nuts you're trying to crack in your business?

What is something that maybe myself, my readers, can help you out with whether it's finding a skillset, people, partners? What are some nuts you’re trying to crack?

The ASK survey nut is taking up a lot of resources because we're implementing it in various businesses. That’s a big one.

I'm always looking for integrators, so if anybody's reading to this and they feel they’re world-class integrator, I literally have more deal flow that I can do. I'm always looking for solid people.

Contact Brad Costanzo first if you're an integrator and then I’ll give him all my emails. It's funny that's one of the things that Mark Winters on the Rocket Fuel show was talking about. Integrators are the rare bird. They're the diamond.

They're not enough of them with 5% of the population. There are four to one visionaries to every integrator.

Their entire vision for their company is to create a bigger pool of well-trained and self-aware integrators for entrepreneurs and eventually creating a matching service to where people can understand the methodology.

Can you imagine coming across somebody who not only knows they're an integrator but may have been trained or certified by Mark and Gino on how to come in and operate as an integrator,

using their frameworks, using all of this other stuff?

It's like, “I got this, I get it, you don't have to train them in.” That's of their big goal and I think that's awesome.

That would be a dream come true.

He says he's happy doing these integrator mastery forums like a seminar. I don't know what it costs. It may cost like $5,000 or something like this. I don't even know if they're going on yet but it sounds interesting. It's not for visionaries, it's for integrators.

I was telling them, “What you should do is sell this to your integrators and get them in a room. For $10,000, let all the visionaries come in on the outside. Let them circle like sharks waiting for all these integrators to leave and gobble them all up.”

It would be a huge demand for people who know how to implement. Survey funnels looking for integrators, people who can execute, people who understand some of what you're doing and want to come into your world and grow with you. Anything else that I can help you with anybody else?

How can people give you money? You got the and you've got your story, you’ve got some cool resources out of three extra productivity, you have the Limitless Life. Are you doing this more as a personal outlet? Do you do any consulting? Do you do anything like that?

I do consulting. I'm available for either today or pay-for-performance deals, which I love doing. Those are my favorite deals to do. Those are options. By the way on my site, I have a book called 3X Your Productivity: The 20-Hour Work Week, which has been getting incredible praise and love.

If you haven't read it, go to and check it out. Those are ways that people can work with me. though is a soul-driven thing, a hard-driven thing. I'm loving it. I'm loving putting cool stuff out there.

Wherever it goes, it goes. I have building leads and I am going to release Level Five Marketing, so I'll monetize those leads at that point but it's not like it's a business per se.

You're familiar with Stiletto Coffee that I've talked about. That was born because of the whole concept of Level Five. For people who don't know, I think I've done a show on this or touched on it but not totally.

I'll just diverge for new readers of this show. Myself and my wife have a company called

It's the only coffee in the world that's for women, marketed for women, branded with a very female presence. A portion of the proceeds gives back to women's programs and pays it forward, gives back whatever you want to say. The entire branding as people know is very female-centric.

BWB Gallent | Digital Marketing

Digital Marketing: Marketing is creating emotional, primal, and spiritual connection with your target audience.


It's because I was aware of the five levels of market sophistication from Eugene Schwartz about how that fifth level, it's no longer making a claim about your product or talking about the mechanism which makes your product work, but it's its prospect or customer-driven marketing.

It's creating an emotional bond. It’s changing the conversation where it's not about our product anymore, it's much more about the consumer of the product. I know that the fifth level, I would love to hear some more your insights on that.

It is all about that but that's one of the reasons where I thought, “This is something we may be able to do because we identified a potential fifth level to sell a commodity with.” Nobody else is doing it. Everybody else is focusing on their coffee beans and selling that.

We thought we can Zig when everybody else is Zagging. That's what's allowed us to gather some traction in the marketplace. That's a dear to my heart content.

I think Dave Asprey with Bulletproof did that to a certain degree in terms of tailored into high-performance executives, entrepreneurs, Kimera Koffee, they've got nootropics in there. Bottom line is that's what people need to do these days.

It's about creating that connection whether it's emotional, primal, spiritual. There are different types of connections. One of those connections with the target audience that you're reaching out for, that's what level five becomes about.

That's the foundation of a course I’m putting out. I'm going to reveal seven different methodologies, strategies to do that. Some of which most people aren't even aware of and it's what you need to do. As we talked about earlier, just going straight for the kill with “killer copy” is not really that viable.

I encourage every single person out there to go check out what you're doing over at If you're doing some heavy media buys and spending, go over there and contact him. Do you have your contact information on there?

People can hit reply on any of the posts. I get a message for all them. I'm still managing all those.

I asked about Gold Lantern. I look forward to seeing some of the other stuff that you've got coming out and looking forward to hooking up with you next time you're stateside. If you ever want to get out of that humidity in Panama, come hang out in San Diego. I’ve got a spare bedroom for you.

I do have a bacon-related suggestion for everybody. I don't know where you can get this but there's a restaurant in Panama that serves this and the name of the cut is called Lechon.

It's basically they crisp up the skin and then you got this beautiful layer of fat and then the meat. It's one of the best pieces of pork you'll ever have. It’s ridiculous.

Let’s see if I can find somebody who's serving that out here. That’s cool. I look forward to visiting you down in Panama someday. It's been on my bucket list of places to go, once it cools down a little bit.

Thanks for being on the show. As always this has been fun. It's been cool and I love the fact that I've kept my little notebook handy. I still go back to it every once in a while looking for fun ideas and things to implement.

For all my readers, I hope you've enjoyed this one. Once more, go to One of the best things you can do for me as a reader is to share the show on Facebook for instance or Twitter and let people know that you like it. Share the episode with Matt and say, “I learned a lot here.”

I don't get paid directly from folks who read to this stuff. I could very easily put all these episodes behind a paywall and make people pay $20 a month for this information.

I guarantee that some of the stuff that match here is worth way more than $20,000. It could be worth thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in the right hands.

Do Matt and I both favor and give us a nice little share. I've mentioned this in the past to where on some other shows, I’ve been asking for book recommendations for people like some of their favorite businesses or inspirational, motivational books.

Send those to me, send me an email at Drop me a line, tell me what you're reading or what you'd recommend I read.

If you are a business owner, entrepreneur, professional and you're looking to unstick where you're stuck and maybe you want a second opinion on your marketing strategies that you're doing.

Maybe you think you've got it all going well but maybe there's something else that you'd like another perspective on. I'm happy to give you a second opinion and you can also email me at and tell me that you're looking for that.

If you are looking for some proven ways to increase your leads especially if you're selling and consulting, this is what I do. I'm happy to help share my system with you on what's work to develop leads and create a consulting program that doesn't own you but that you can control.

Reach out to me, you know how to do it. Go over and leave a review on iTunes at

Until next time, Matt, I appreciate your time. I look forward to hooking up with you again sometime soon.

Thank you so much for having me. I hope everybody enjoyed it. Bless, have a great day.

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About The Guest: Matt Gallant

BWB Gallent | Digital MarketingAs a fanatical split-tester, he has tested well over 10,000 different marketing ideas. He currently has about 200-300 tests going on (opt-ins, sales letters, order pages, up-sells, etc.) and he has two businesses that have been around for more than a decade that are doing a healthy 7-figures each.

His most successful business last year was supplements – fundamental health products (enzymes, probiotics, vitamins, minerals, organic protein powder, etc.).

Matt’s major focus now is on becoming a better entrepreneur, businessman, team builder and process-builder.

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