Rich Schefren And The Quest To Save Internet Businesses From Big Tech

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    This is a special video for me because I've looked to Rich Schefren's advice for over a decade now in helping to grow my own businesses and that of clients. Rich is the founder of Strategic Profits and one of the most sought after business growth and marketing experts who has proof of helping Agora publishing do over a billion dollars in sales from his guidance.

    Now I'm sitting down with Rich to discuss some very important issues facing all internet-based businesses, threats and dangers directly from Big Tech.

    We discuss

    • Unique ways to create and channel customer demand
    • How to rapidly learn and integrate new information
    • How to protect your business from some very big dangers happening right now from big tech and the platforms that digital marketers rely on most (like the Google, FB and more).

    Then you can see how Rich has organized some of the best marketing minds on the planet to engineer solutions in his upcoming 24 hour livescast.

    Click Here To Get A Free Ticket To The Livestream 

     

    Schefren Interview

    Brad Costanzo: I'd like you to meet Rich Schefren here. This is a very special treat for me, um, as I, talk to a guy that has been very influential for me in the past decade, plus, that I've been doing this-

    I think I stumbled across him back in 2008 when I first got into this world of marketing.

    My entire business was sales in the past, and I've been a customer of yours, I've been a fan, I've been a follower, uh, and it… you know, in the past hour or so that we've been catching up, just understanding some of the cool things that you have got going on right now, and some of these insights that are just really, uh, you know, not only remarkable, but very timely and important for, I think, all business owners to pay attention to, and I think in the first part of it… the way I want… would love this conversation to go is I've got a bunch of fun personal things I'd just love to ask you-

    Going back through your body of work that on… that has been some of the most influential parts on me-I'd love to just kinda revisit that, and then, I'd like to start to go, you know, this whole idea of where the puck is going-

    Because one of the things, when I think about you- I think you personify maybe more than most of the thought leaders that I've come across, you know, there's that- there's that marketing formula of attention, interest, desire, and action, right-

    Rich Schefren:  Right-

    Brad Costanzo: It's the… one of the oldest marketing formulas out there. More than anybody, uh, you seem to have mastered the art of attention, interest, and desire-

    Grabbing attention, building interest, and generating that desire, and I know I, like most people, came across you first with the Internet Business Manifesto-

    And just how remarkable that was, and I know I've dissected that, I've bought your report writing workshop-

    Where you went into this, and I think more than anything, things that I appreciate are the- the visceral responses I get reading your stuff, realizing that, “This guy is about to get my money, and I don't care, because I'm so intrigued by what he's doing”-

    “And I see him doing the magic trick, and I'm still gonna do it anyway.”

    So, I wanna talk a little bit about the process of really grabbing that attention, building the interest, and desire in the marketplace, because you've not only done it amazingly for yourself, but you've helped some other people do it-

    And I know I've tried to recreate it for myself, for some clients in the past, and there- there always seems to be some stuff missing.

    But before I do that, I'll… I think I've told you this story in the past, but I'll tell anybody else this, because I remember a very specific moment in May… I've got it in my email somewhere-

    But May of 2009-

    I was at an internet marketing seminar, and at the time, I had a little info product, it was just me, and my business partner, and we were just slinging promotion after promotion, and I was standing next to a woman named Shelly, and I remember this really-

    Really close. And I said, “You know, one of my biggest frustrations is I feel like I'm just playing the role of an entrepreneur.”

    Like, “I'm just playing… I'm calling myself an entrepreneur, I'm not. I'm in… Working out of my underwear, trying to sell stuff to people online, this is not what an entrepreneur is.” And the next day-

    I got an email from Rich Schefren, and I was on your newsletter-

    And it said, “Are you playing business, Brad?” And I starred that, and I've sent that to other people, because I just remember seeing it, and realizing it, after that subject line, I was like, “Whatever he's selling, I'm buying.”

    Rich Schefren: Right.

    Brad Costanzo:  that was a really impactful moment, and I use that with some of my clients to go, “This is, uh, this is what happens when you nail the customer's frustration perfectly in a way…”

    Rich Schefren:  Right. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo: Like, it's in their words, “To where you- you take ownership of the places of their mind.”

    Rich Schefren:  Sure.

    Brad Costanzo: Because there's a lot of stuff to cover, but let's start there.

    Rich Schefren: That's an easy… like, that's easy, and it's fresh in my mind just because of what I watched this weekend. Um, so, and definitely the- the other question about, you know, capturing attention also, we can kinda dovetail into.

    But this weekend, something like… this- this past weekend was a big UFC fight-

    Uh, Conor McGregor versus Cowboy Cerrone, and I'm a big UFC fan, and um, and there's a concept that I've taught for years at… uh, that is based on a quote that I can't tell who actually said it, because it's been attributed to a lot of people, but the… during the- during the- the promotion period before the fight, uh, for people who follow UFC, like there's a story attached to Cowboy Cerrone about how he chokes under pressure in the big fight, like he never won the championship, and because of that, like there was a focus on would he rally, or would he, you know, kind of fall apart?

     And um, so they interviewed him about what it was like preparing for a fight, like the last hour before he got on… you know, went out to fight, and um, and he was… and he went into pretty vivid detail about how- how anxiety provoking it was, how his hands felt heavy, his legs felt heavy, like… and he… and then, there's more panic, because like, “I gotta be able to punch fast, and kick fast,” and all this kind of stuff he was going into, and then, it flashed back to the ESPN desk, and Chael Sonnen, and another like a world champion was there, and they both were like… oh, uh, Bisping was there, uh, so two guys who had won championships, fought in championships, and they both were like, “Oh, my God. I didn't… I thought I was the only one,” right?

    Like, they both had, had similar experiences, but all three, Cowboy, you know, Chael, and Michael Bisping all thought they were the only person to struggle with it, and the quote is, “That which is most personal is most general,” and so, what it's always meant to me is the things that people struggle with that they're least likely to share are the same things that everyone else is struggling with that are least likely to share, and so, the first person who calls it out, um, gets the benefit of, uh, of that.

    And the benefit of that is that, um, most people… most of the time, I know that's a lost of mosts, but most people most of the time feel misunderstood, and when we look at products, one of the easiest ways to kind of opt out of the product mentally is to say, “This doesn't apply to me, uh, either because I've got pre-built-in excuses about like who I am as a person, or whatever.” And so, what… being able to call out a reader, or a viewer, or what have you, and uh, make them feel like their problem is understood, um, immediately prevents that mental opt-out, and also speaks to the solution being something that is directly for them, since it's talking to them in the first place, right?

    So, what I've tried to do always is kind of look at the market as a group of people, right, every market is a group of people, that share a conflict, and that conflict is either a goal unattained, or a problem unresolved. It's one or the other, or they wouldn't be in the market, and most people didn't join the market yesterday, so they've been trying to get this outcome, or solve this problem for some period of time. And so, I'm coming into the market, and um, you know, I… they have a desire for this outcome, and they have a prescribed method that they're following that's not getting them that outcome.

    And so, if I can come in, and point to a couple of the problems that they're experiencing, so that they feel, the reader, the viewer, or whatever, feels understood, um, and at the same time, I'm taking those problems that I've just laid out, and actually converting them more to symptoms of a deeper problem, right, then these problems now become like just… they're- they're not the thing to be attacked, although that's what's been done in the past, they're just a relic of a deeper problem that has not been addressed.

    And- and so, you know, whether it was the Internet Business Manifesto making like the problems of the marketplace be defined as being an opportunity seeker, or, you know, the Entrepreneurial Emergency, which was, you know, the- the problem, uh, was that you know, you're not hitting your full potential, and there's a constraint in the way, um, it's more about… and then, these are all the things that you'll experience when a constraint is in the way, and these are the things that they are experiencing, like it automatically now kinda refines the conversation into, “I just need to change one thing.”

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:  Right? And ideally, that is the- the… like, I'm coming in with a different belief, but… than my prospect has, but the easiest belief to get someone to- to believe, uh, is that they're doing everything right, but one thing wrong. And so, the Internet Business Manifesto was like, “Hey, look. Marketing's important. Marketing is probably the most important thing in business, but it's still in business, and you still need to understand business even though marketing is the most important part of business.” So, you've learned marketing, but you haven't learned business, there's one piece left that once you do, you understand how to like make the puzzle work.

    So, it's a lot about like… It also, I would say, came about, because I'm a horrible salesperson, um, as opposed… which has made me become a better marketer. Like, when I had my hypnosis centers, um, the whole hypnosis center design of the clinics was designed, so that I could optimize my selling, you could say, because like when people were in the waiting room, there was just books about how positive hypnosis was, books of testimonials, and then, on TV was all the TV appearances, uh, that I was on, and I would close like 40% of the people that came into the office, whereas like the professional salespeople that sold would sell like 75%, like almost double what I sold.

    Um, so, I've always been kind of ineffective at selling, because I don't like pushing people-

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:  Um, but I find it very easy to educate my way to a sale, um, primarily because I'm just an info fiend myself, and so, uh, I think a lot of it has to do with that. One, understanding that what's most personal is most general, so like a lot of the stuff that I wrote about, whether it was in the Entrepreneurial Emergency, or the Internet Business Manifesto, or even the doctrines, was often times me writing to my former self, like who was dealing with those problems, so I was very understanding of it. Another was like, you know, I'd done enough coaching calls, so I knew what my clients were struggling with too, and then, also I'd say that it was using the right language, not just using general things like info overload, or frustration, or something, but being… having more depth to it.

    And I think when someone feels fully understood, that's happened so rarely, um, that it- it- it creates a tremendous momentum to purchase, and what- what I used to hear back all the time was, uh, that people would tell me that, “It felt like I was…” me- me, it felt like I, uh, was standing over their shoulder,” right?

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:  Like checking, watching them, but what was true of all those things was those were all common experiences that most people were not aware that, um, that everyone else had asked, or a lot of other people had asked the same question. Like, when I was struggling online, like I really started wondering what's wrong with me, because I had seen a lot of other people succeed, and I was not, you know… When I was talking to Todd Brown 10 years ago about that, like, you know, he had that same thought, right? So, it's like these kinds of thoughts, you don't necessarily go around sharing it-

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah. We've all had it. Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:  But those are the ones that, uh… And you don't have to. As a marketer, you don't have to share, like, you know, I don't… I'm pretty confident in the Internet Business Manifesto. Nowhere in there did I say I was writing to my old self, like from two years prior, or three years prior, but that's what I was doing, and I was very familiar with the feelings, because I had just felt them.

    Brad Costanzo:  So, in that case, it's not like you… especially in that case, you didn't have… it's not you had to do a bunch of customer research, and all this, necessarily, and empathy mapping, because you were the person-

    Rich Schefren:  Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:  You just paid really close attention to the way you feel in those times, right?

    Rich Schefren:  Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:  Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:  That's one of the things I've- I've tried to do, because, you know, like anybody, I'll go through those, uh, moments of, you know, existential despair-

    Rich Schefren: Right-

    Brad Costanzo:  And I'm doing it all wrong, and this, that, and the other, or something's not working out, and as a marketer, I understand my job. It's almost like an actor-

    Rich Schefren: Right-

    Brad Costanzo:  Like as an actor-

    Rich Schefren:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Brad Costanzo: [00:13:29] You're supposed to go through these… Actually, I was watching a show on Netflix called the The Kominsky Method, with, uh-

    Rich Schefren:  Okay-

    Brad Costanzo:  With, uh, who… What's his name? Married to Catherine Zeta-Jones. Michael Douglas.

    Rich Schefren: Okay.

    Brad Costanzo:He's an acting teacher, and somebody's going through a really… or he's going through a moment of loss, and he goes, “I- I realize it's my job to- to experience this moment in its fullness, so that I can fully understand it, and bring it out later.”

    Rich Schefren: Right-

    Brad Costanzo: And I think as a marketer, especially if we're selling to stuff, like our-

    Rich Schefren:  Yeah. Our own thing-

    Brad Costanzo: That it's imperative to go, “All right. How do I feel right now? How can I use this as a tool to understand that other people are probably feeling like this?”

    Rich Schefren: Right-

    Brad Costanzo:  And not try to… because I- I think… I know my gut reaction is to try to get out of that feeling, get out of that funk as quickly as possible-

    Rich Schefren:  Right-

    Brad Costanzo: But sometimes, I think if you stay in the funk long enough to get the nuances out of it, it can be really powerful fodder-

    Rich Schefren: Yeah. Well, I would say that, like along those lines, like I think for me what's helped me tremendously is, I guess, two things. One, uh, I guess I'm a little- a little egotistical regarding that if I'm experiencing something, my belief is other people are too. I don't feel like I'm alone on the planet. Um, and then, the other thing is that, um, you don't- you don't have to dwell on it like a- a- a lot, but what you do have to do is make it clear that you're aware, and I think like for me, um, yeah, keeping a journal has been, for me, like…

    Because I'm getting to express my emotions consistently, like I can go back to old journals to really see how I was feeling, but the other thing is- is that, um, it's… In general, what I try and do is I pay very close attention to when things happen to me, um, and I'm always trying to understand, because we all do this. Like, we all like set ourselves up at

    Brad Costanzo: I'd like you to meet Rich Schefren here. This is a very special treat for me, um, as I, talk to a guy that has been very influential for me in the past decade, plus, that I've been doing this-

    I think I stumbled across him back in 2008 when I first got into this world of marketing.

    My entire business was sales in the past, and I've been a customer of yours, I've been a fan, I've been a follower and it… you know, in the past hour or so that we've been catching up, just understanding some of the cool things that you have got going on right now, and some of these insights that are just really you know, not only remarkable, but very timely and important for, I think, all business owners to pay attention to, and I think in the first part of it… the way I want… would love this conversation to go is I've got a bunch of fun personal things I'd just love to ask you-

    Going back through your body of work that on… that has been some of the most influential parts on me-I'd love to just kinda revisit that, and then, I'd like to start to go, you know, this whole idea of where the puck is going-

    Because one of the things, when I think about you- I think you personify maybe more than most of the thought leaders that I've come across, you know, there's that- there's that marketing formula of attention, interest, desire, and action, right-

    Rich Schefren:  Right-

    Brad Costanzo: It's the… one of the oldest marketing formulas out there. More than anybody you seem to have mastered the art of attention, interest, and desire-

    Grabbing attention, building interest, and generating that desire, and I know I, like most people, came across you first with the Internet Business Manifesto-

    And just how remarkable that was, and I know I've dissected that, I've bought your report writing workshop-

    Where you went into this, and I think more than anything, things that I appreciate are the- the visceral responses I get reading your stuff, realizing that, “This guy is about to get my money, and I don't care, because I'm so intrigued by what he's doing”-

    “And I see him doing the magic trick, and I'm still gonna do it anyway.”

    So, I wanna talk a little bit about the process of really grabbing that attention, building the interest, and desire in the marketplace, because you've not only done it amazingly for yourself, but you've helped some other people do it-

    And I know I've tried to recreate it for myself, for some clients in the past, and there- there always seems to be some stuff missing.

    But before I do that, I'll… I think I've told you this story in the past, but I'll tell anybody else this, because I remember a very specific moment in May… I've got it in my email somewhere-

    But May of 2009-

    I was at an internet marketing seminar, and at the time, I had a little info product, it was just me, and my business partner, and we were just slinging promotion after promotion, and I was standing next to a woman named Shelly, and I remember this really-

    Really close. And I said, “You know, one of my biggest frustrations is I feel like I'm just playing the role of an entrepreneur.”

    Like, “I'm just playing… I'm calling myself an entrepreneur, I'm not. I'm in… Working out of my underwear, trying to sell stuff to people online, this is not what an entrepreneur is.” And the next day-

    I got an email from Rich Schefren, and I was on your newsletter-

    And it said, “Are you playing business, Brad?” And I starred that, and I've sent that to other people, because I just remember seeing it, and realizing it, after that subject line, I was like, “Whatever he's selling, I'm buying.”

    Rich Schefren: Right.

    Brad Costanzo:  that was a really impactful moment, and I use that with some of my clients to go, “This is this is what happens when you nail the customer's frustration perfectly in a way…”

    Rich Schefren:  Right. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo: Like, it's in their words, “To where you- you take ownership of the places of their mind.”

    Rich Schefren:  Sure.

    Brad Costanzo: Because there's a lot of stuff to cover, but let's start there.

    Rich Schefren: That's an easy… like, that's easy, and it's fresh in my mind just because of what I watched this weekend. Um, so, and definitely the- the other question about, you know, capturing attention also, we can kinda dovetail into.

    But this weekend, something like… this- this past weekend was a big UFC fight-

    Uh, Conor McGregor versus Cowboy Cerrone, and I'm a big UFC fan, and um, and there's a concept that I've taught for years at… uh, that is based on a quote that I can't tell who actually said it, because it's been attributed to a lot of people, but the… during the- during the- the promotion period before the fight for people who follow UFC, like there's a story attached to Cowboy Cerrone about how he chokes under pressure in the big fight, like he never won the championship, and because of that, like there was a focus on would he rally, or would he, you know, kind of fall apart?

     And um, so they interviewed him about what it was like preparing for a fight, like the last hour before he got on… you know, went out to fight, and um, and he was… and he went into pretty vivid detail about how- how anxiety provoking it was, how his hands felt heavy, his legs felt heavy, like… and he… and then, there's more panic, because like, “I gotta be able to punch fast, and kick fast,” and all this kind of stuff he was going into, and then, it flashed back to the ESPN desk, and Chael Sonnen, and another like a world champion was there, and they both were like… oh Bisping was there so two guys who had won championships, fought in championships, and they both were like, “Oh, my God. I didn't… I thought I was the only one,” right?

    Like, they both had, had similar experiences, but all three, Cowboy, you know, Chael, and Michael Bisping all thought they were the only person to struggle with it, and the quote is, “That which is most personal is most general,” and so, what it's always meant to me is the things that people struggle with that they're least likely to share are the same things that everyone else is struggling with that are least likely to share, and so, the first person who calls it out, um, gets the benefit of of that.

    And the benefit of that is that, um, most people… most of the time, I know that's a lost of mosts, but most people most of the time feel misunderstood, and when we look at products, one of the easiest ways to kind of opt out of the product mentally is to say, “This doesn't apply to me either because I've got pre-built-in excuses about like who I am as a person, or whatever.” And so, what… being able to call out a reader, or a viewer, or what have you, and uh, make them feel like their problem is understood, um, immediately prevents that mental opt-out, and also speaks to the solution being something that is directly for them, since it's talking to them in the first place, right?

    So, what I've tried to do always is kind of look at the market as a group of people, right, every market is a group of people, that share a conflict, and that conflict is either a goal unattained, or a problem unresolved. It's one or the other, or they wouldn't be in the market, and most people didn't join the market yesterday, so they've been trying to get this outcome, or solve this problem for some period of time. And so, I'm coming into the market, and um, you know, I… they have a desire for this outcome, and they have a prescribed method that they're following that's not getting them that outcome.

    And so, if I can come in, and point to a couple of the problems that they're experiencing, so that they feel, the reader, the viewer, or whatever, feels understood, um, and at the same time, I'm taking those problems that I've just laid out, and actually converting them more to symptoms of a deeper problem, right, then these problems now become like just… they're- they're not the thing to be attacked, although that's what's been done in the past, they're just a relic of a deeper problem that has not been addressed.

    And- and so, you know, whether it was the Internet Business Manifesto making like the problems of the marketplace be defined as being an opportunity seeker, or, you know, the Entrepreneurial Emergency, which was, you know, the- the problem was that you know, you're not hitting your full potential, and there's a constraint in the way, um, it's more about… and then, these are all the things that you'll experience when a constraint is in the way, and these are the things that they are experiencing, like it automatically now kinda refines the conversation into, “I just need to change one thing.”

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:  Right? And ideally, that is the- the… like, I'm coming in with a different belief, but… than my prospect has, but the easiest belief to get someone to- to believe is that they're doing everything right, but one thing wrong. And so, the Internet Business Manifesto was like, “Hey, look. Marketing's important. Marketing is probably the most important thing in business, but it's still in business, and you still need to understand business even though marketing is the most important part of business.” So, you've learned marketing, but you haven't learned business, there's one piece left that once you do, you understand how to like make the puzzle work.

    So, it's a lot about like… It also, I would say, came about, because I'm a horrible salesperson, um, as opposed… which has made me become a better marketer. Like, when I had my hypnosis centers, um, the whole hypnosis center design of the clinics was designed, so that I could optimize my selling, you could say, because like when people were in the waiting room, there was just books about how positive hypnosis was, books of testimonials, and then, on TV was all the TV appearances that I was on, and I would close like 40% of the people that came into the office, whereas like the professional salespeople that sold would sell like 75%, like almost double what I sold.

    Um, so, I've always been kind of ineffective at selling, because I don't like pushing people-

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:  Um, but I find it very easy to educate my way to a sale, um, primarily because I'm just an info fiend myself, and so I think a lot of it has to do with that. One, understanding that what's most personal is most general, so like a lot of the stuff that I wrote about, whether it was in the Entrepreneurial Emergency, or the Internet Business Manifesto, or even the doctrines, was often times me writing to my former self, like who was dealing with those problems, so I was very understanding of it. Another was like, you know, I'd done enough coaching calls, so I knew what my clients were struggling with too, and then, also I'd say that it was using the right language, not just using general things like info overload, or frustration, or something, but being… having more depth to it.

    And I think when someone feels fully understood, that's happened so rarely, um, that it- it- it creates a tremendous momentum to purchase, and what- what I used to hear back all the time was that people would tell me that, “It felt like I was…” me- me, it felt like I was standing over their shoulder,” right?

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:  Like checking, watching them, but what was true of all those things was those were all common experiences that most people were not aware that, um, that everyone else had asked, or a lot of other people had asked the same question. Like, when I was struggling online, like I really started wondering what's wrong with me, because I had seen a lot of other people succeed, and I was not, you know… When I was talking to Todd Brown 10 years ago about that, like, you know, he had that same thought, right? So, it's like these kinds of thoughts, you don't necessarily go around sharing it-

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah. We've all had it. Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:  But those are the ones that, uh… And you don't have to. As a marketer, you don't have to share, like, you know, I don't… I'm pretty confident in the Internet Business Manifesto. Nowhere in there did I say I was writing to my old self, like from two years prior, or three years prior, but that's what I was doing, and I was very familiar with the feelings, because I had just felt them.

    Brad Costanzo:  So, in that case, it's not like you… especially in that case, you didn't have… it's not you had to do a bunch of customer research, and all this, necessarily, and empathy mapping, because you were the person-

    Rich Schefren:  Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:  You just paid really close attention to the way you feel in those times, right?

    Rich Schefren:  Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:  Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:  Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:  That's one of the things I've- I've tried to do, because, you know, like anybody, I'll go through those moments of, you know, existential despair-

    Rich Schefren: Right-

    Brad Costanzo:  And I'm doing it all wrong, and this, that, and the other, or something's not working out, and as a marketer, I understand my job. It's almost like an actor-

    Rich Schefren: Right-

    Brad Costanzo:  Like as an actor-

    Rich Schefren:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Brad Costanzo: [00:13:29] You're supposed to go through these… Actually, I was watching a show on Netflix called the The Kominsky Method, with, uh-

    Rich Schefren:  Okay-

    Brad Costanzo:  With who… What's his name? Married to Catherine Zeta-Jones. Michael Douglas.

    Rich Schefren: Okay.

    Brad Costanzo:He's an acting teacher, and somebody's going through a really… or he's going through a moment of loss, and he goes, “I- I realize it's my job to- to experience this moment in its fullness, so that I can fully understand it, and bring it out later.”

    Rich Schefren: Right-

    Brad Costanzo: And I think as a marketer, especially if we're selling to stuff, like our-

    Rich Schefren:  Yeah. Our own thing-

    Brad Costanzo: That it's imperative to go, “All right. How do I feel right now? How can I use this as a tool to understand that other people are probably feeling like this?”

    Rich Schefren: Right-

    Brad Costanzo:  And not try to… because I- I think… I know my gut reaction is to try to get out of that feeling, get out of that funk as quickly as possible-

    Rich Schefren:  Right-

    Brad Costanzo: But sometimes, I think if you stay in the funk long enough to get the nuances out of it, it can be really powerful fodder-

    Rich Schefren: Yeah. Well, I would say that, like along those lines, like I think for me what's helped me tremendously is, I guess, two things. One I guess I'm a little- a little egotistical regarding that if I'm experiencing something, my belief is other people are too. I don't feel like I'm alone on the planet. Um, and then, the other thing is that, um, you don't- you don't have to dwell on it like a- a- a lot, but what you do have to do is make it clear that you're aware, and I think like for me, um, yeah, keeping a journal has been, for me, like…

    Because I'm getting to express my emotions consistently, like I can go back to old journals to really see how I was feeling, but the other thing is- is that, um, it's… In general, what I try and do is I pay very close attention to when things happen to me, um, and I'm always trying to understand, because we all do this. Like, we all like set ourselves up at certain times to believe like a certain purchase is gonna change more than it could ever change, right? Like… Or, you know how do I feel having an- an older like Mac versus a newer Mac when other… when someone… Like, just paying attention to these little things, um, because at least for me, I've always felt like my own experience has been my best teacher-

    I've gotten lots of great mentors, but like, what… when I look at my own results, and based on what I did, like, and looking at those, I can learn more than anything else, and I would say that, um, yeah, for me, what's worked best has been paying attention to like what… when is there… like, when do I come across a product that I'm like, “Oh, I really want this, I really…” like, and I'm trying to unpack why do I feel that way, and you know, we lie to ourselves somewhat, but um, but we can at least get access to it, and we can at least get access to when we feel that way, right-

    Brad Costanzo: Yeah-

    Rich Schefren: And- and really pay attention to that, and I think that, um, you know, everyone has their own different process, but uh, for me, the- the hardest part of the whole equation is not so much that, but it's finding the solution that I fully believe in, because I have to like sell myself-

    Brad Costanzo: Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:  On the solution-

    Brad Costanzo:  Right.

    Rich Schefren:  Um, for… before I can ever effectively teach my way to that solution.

    Brad Costanzo: Right. So, then, in- in that process-

    Rich Schefren:  Right-

    Brad Costanzo: Which, as I said, I'm infinitely fascinated by, so you- you understand the core frustrations of the-

    Rich Schefren:   The market. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   The market, and what they're going through, and you kinda have that, so that it helps you build it just going back to-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   One of your best known things, Internet Business Manifesto-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Like you're- you're really overarching… I don't know if the word is a theme, but the core idea, the big idea behind that was really that strategic versus opportunistic-

    Rich Schefren:   Opportunistic. Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Opportunity seekers versus strategic entrepreneurs-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   One's gonna win, one… and- and you lump-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And as long as you can get them to believe that-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   As the core thing, then you just build the case, right? So, at what… is the- is the whole big idea, does that come closer to the beginning, or to the end? Like, do you have this rough idea of this is the problems they face, these are the potential solutions, and as you work through it, that big idea emerges from it, or in many cases, do you think of that first, like strategic versus opportunistic, and how do I build the case around that?

    Rich Schefren:   I've done it- I've done it numerous ways. Um, so, like, with the Internet Business Manifesto, the- the distinction between strategic, and opportunistic was actually… I heard on a teleseminar. Um, it was Paul Limberg, and Jay Abraham-

    Brad Costanzo:   [laughs]-

    Rich Schefren:   And Jay Abraham mentioned strategy, and tactics, and Paul Limberg corrected him, and said, “It's really the distinction between strategy, and opportunism, and that was enough. Like, I heard that, and I'm like, “Oh, that's… I've never heard that before, that's really smart, that's really true.” Like, and then, like my brain started racing, like, the missing chapter, like that was in response, because I wrote that like two weeks later to the mistake that I thought most people were making that I thought was pretty obvious, that you have to choose the right business for yourself. Like, just because there's a need in the market doesn't mean you're the best person to fill it.

    Um, the final chapter was… How did I write that? That was more looking at where I thought things were going-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, and I also had a lot of knowledge that I wanted to share, what I had learned from Agora. Um, The Attention Age Doctrine One and Two, were more about what I saw happening in the world. So, I- I would say that not always, and I would say though that my best reports have always been focused more on the negative than the positive, more focused on the current context of like what's going on right now versus what may happen in the future, even though I've called a lot of things correctly, like the selling power of those is not as powerful. And I-

    Brad Costanzo:   I will say that this morning-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Before we got here, I reread, real quickly-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   In my Rich file-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   My Schefren files… [laughs]-

    Rich Schefren:   [laughing]-

    Brad Costanzo:   I pulled out The Attention Age Doctrine Two, and I reread that real quickly, and uh-

    Rich Schefren:   That's probably the one I'm most proud of as far as like the number of things I called right, because Facebook didn't exist then-

    Brad Costanzo:   This was what, 2008, maybe?

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Facebook didn't exist then-

    Brad Costanzo:   You were like, “Get on social… Learn how to use social media.”

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   “Get on it, learn how to use it right, capture attention, and do this.”

    Rich Schefren:   Well, and, you- you know, I'd say that like- like, because I just recorded some other videos, um, for this campaign that I'm sure we're gonna talk about later, but the-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yep-

    Rich Schefren:   One of the things I was talking about was that, um, that… One of the things that I wrote about in the Attention Age Doctrine Two that I strongly still recommend, and I still… most people don't really… I don't… Well, if they get it, they don't do it. I don't think they get it, is that what I said in the Attention Age Doctrine Two is that your prospects are no longer just targets, they're going to be your best channel, and as like social media, and these different platforms create world gardens, and really try and keep their visitors on their sites, and also give them a louder voice than a business does, um, because of fake news, and all that kind of stuff, that really the best voice that you have, the best channel you have is other people.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   And, but I think that a lot of people confuse what I said, like, “Prospects are no longer just targets, they're actually your best channel,” with like a word of mouth campaign that their customers are like helping propagate to some level, and-

    Brad Costanzo:   That's a very shallow perspective of what you're trying to say.

    Rich Schefren:   And- and… Yeah. It's a very small amount, because like you're gonna have 100 times, or 50 times more prospects than you're ever gonna have customers, and- and it's also a very different strategy. Like when you're going to your customers it's, you know, more about, “Can you share how great we were with you, or whatever?” Not that you couldn't do other things, but that's how most people default to, whereas when you're getting your prospects to share, you're really not… the- the idea of asking them for a favor is kind of a strong thing, so you have to incentivize, and what I've always found is the best incentive is to give them something that… like a secret that they so are anxious to share with other people that your message gets passed along that way, and some notoriety of what your creation was that caused that also kind of you know, hitches a ride onto that. So-

    Brad Costanzo:   Well, and especially when you study what makes things go viral, and why people share things-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   A- a big part of it is that by sharing it… if I'm sharing an idea, that if you give me this idea that strategy versus opportunity- opportunity seekers is a winner, and I'm sharing that-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   That's in… me piggybacking off of you-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And it's- it's a status elevator for me-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Going, “I believe this too. You should get it, and if you discover it through me, I get to- I get to hold onto it.” So, people love sharing things that-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   That they have these epiphanies on, and that's one of… like you talk about these epiphanies-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And creating these rev- revelations in somebody's mind, like, don't tell them-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Cause them to-

    Rich Schefren:   Revelation before explanation-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And the idea there is- is that, like… and it… You know, when I wrote the Internet Business Manifesto, its success was a huge surprise to me. I thought like I would get like 10 or 12 clients, that's what I was hoping for-

    Brad Costanzo:   10 or 12, that's it-

    Rich Schefren:   For like a three… Yeah. For a three month period, and then, I was gonna go do this project with Agora-

    Brad Costanzo:   [laughs]-

    Rich Schefren:   And, you know, I ended up getting thousands, but the… Yeah. There's the- the… When… Ask me the question again, so that I make sure I'm answering it correctly.

    Brad Costanzo:   Uh, well, I was… I- I don't know how much of a question-

    Rich Schefren:   Oh, revelation-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. It was the-

    Rich Schefren:   Before explanation-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   So for me, um, one of the things like on the first report, like I don't know if it was conscious in the first report, but it definitely became conscious over time I generally sell things I fully believe in, um, and I don't sell them… I don't believe in them because I'm selling them, I believe them first, and then, I sell them, right? So, I'm coming in with that strong of a belief, and that belief didn't happen for no reason, something caused it. And so, like, I… In- in the marketplace, let's look at the manifesto for a second, like I came to the marketplace with a lot of business experience. Uh, my dad was a ruthless entrepreneur, I witnessed that my whole life, I worked for Arthur Anderson, and Anderson Consulting, and they taught me a lot about business, and I was an accounting major.

    And so, I knew a lot about business, and the, um… but my marketplace did not. And so, what I knew about business had led me to a conclusion that people online who wanted to make money should really understand how to build a business. Their experience had not led them to that conclusion. So, part of marketing is, “Can I figure out, like, what led me to that conclusion, and can I create like an accelerated version of that experience through something where they come to the same realizations too?”

    And that's always, for me, the starting point, because like, yeah, if I believe in an… if I believe in this, there's a reason, and something led me to that belief, and if I can then lead my prospects through that same thing a lot of them will come to the same belief, and on top of that, which I also wrote about in the Attention Age Doctrine, like, people walking away from your material, feeling like they got good value for their attention is critical if you want the next thing being read, but um, the, uh…

    So, that's how I would say… like, that's how I try and cause revelations, you could say-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   Um, because obviously a revelation is them connecting the dots in their head before you have to say it. So, revelation before explanation is you go for them connecting the dots first, you then explain it after, so that you are still explaining it for the dumb people, so to speak, but the smart people who get it ahead of time, now you're just confirming what they already believe, not telling them something new.

    Brad Costanzo:   Right. And that moment of a little epiphany, there's- there's an emotional gut reaction when that happens-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   When you go, boom, the light bulb goes off-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   “I get it.” And by giving somebody that, you hold a special place in their head-

    Rich Schefren:   Especially when it's related to one of their problems-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right-

    Rich Schefren:   That they've been struggling with-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right-

    Rich Schefren:   For sure.

    Brad Costanzo:   And then, because forever, they're associating… and, you know, our most powerful memories are associated with emotions-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   So, when you can attach that emotion, that excitement of, “Oh, I finally…” like, that click, it finally clicks, “I get it”-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. When a new door opens up of how you see the problem-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah.

    Brad Costanzo:   I mean, and that's one of the reasons I'm still, you know, such a big fan of yours on that is because you caused several of those things to click for me, and go, “God, dang it. I either thought this, but it wasn't as coherent…” And I think that's really also another key is like they've kinda got that idea in their mind, but it's not as coherent, and when you can just… like, focus-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Because they hadn't worked on it-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right-

    Rich Schefren:   It's just a fuzzy thing in their head, right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right. And when it's fuzzy, and then you take it from… focus, I think that's even maybe more powerful than going, “It wasn't even in my head, and now it is.”

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Because it's like, “Oh, yeah. You just confirmed the stuff I've been trying to get out. Like, thank you, because it's been a pain for me to get that- that focus in.” In fact, one of the things that, um, you did for me kind of on that, and I- I don't remember which program it was, or what you did, but there was a time when you were talking about your strengths, and you started to list out your various strengths as an entrepreneur-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Like, from the rapid learning, and integrations-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   To… And I share a lot of those same strengths, and to me, it's always been somewhat hard to pin down, because a lot of them are the soft skills of-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Uh, and the way I think about things, and the way I retain stuff, and the way I integrate it, but it's been harder sometimes to put it into a really definitive, you know, specialty, or value proposition to somebody, and it was really actually-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Cathartic when I saw that… Your- your strengths, I considered like a lot the same as mine-

    Rich Schefren:   Aligned with yours. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   And then, I saw the stuff you were able to do with it, and then, I was like, “Okay. Cool. There's actually hope for me.”

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   You know? So, and I remember- I remember where I was when I had that, because it- it was those emotional feelings-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And I think by tying into those, it's a… um, super powerful. How long does it take you typically from when you have that concept to- to create a piece of content like that? Is it excruciating? Does it take-

    Rich Schefren:   It's excruciating, but um, it's excruciating, because I don't know like… uh, but I've written them as quickly as two weeks. I mean, it really kind of like… it depends how much time I have-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh- uh, but uh, but- but I'm a perfectionist, and a procrastinator, and all that kind of stuff. Um, but uh… And that- and that does just… like an ancillary point, because I don't know that we'll have time to really cover it in detail, but-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Just something that I like strongly, for like any entrepreneurial type podcasts, I think is very important to say, and that is, is that a mistake I see a lot- lot of people make in general is that they don't really set up their business for them to win, and I think one of the things that makes me different in my own business, but then, in the amount of people I've coached, and the difference that they've made is that I'm very cognizant of that, that most entrepreneurs make the mistake of putting their self growth goals in front of their business success, because they believe, in order for their business success to happen, they have to be a different person than who they are today, and self change is really hard work, and I think that you should design a business for you to be successful today based on who you are today, not have to be someone different.

    So, like I wrote all those reports, and all those reports sold the program, but every time that it sold the program, I delivered it live first, and I delivered it live first, because it would never get finished-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   If I was left to my own devices, I would, you know, I would have a week in between delivering the content, and it didn't matter if I started the minute I finished delivering the content the week before, or the day before, I never finished until two minutes before-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Because of my own baggage. Uh… [laughs]. Psychological baggage of- of… and shit-

    Brad Costanzo:   I do the same thing.

    Rich Schefren:   So, you know, and I'm not money motivated, and so, I have… someone has to be in a business, or the business isn't gonna make money, so I've put in like really aggressive, um, profit sharing, but, you know, so I was a… You know, all the programs I ever rolled out, any big program, I did it live, because I'm a procrastinator, and I'm a perfectionist, and I had to-

    Brad Costanzo:   That forces you into just getting it out-

    Rich Schefren:   Getting it down-

    Brad Costanzo:   Okay-

    Rich Schefren:   Because it would've never been done, and I would've never… So, yes. So, it's hard to say like how long a report would take me. It really depends on the timing of it. [laughs]. Um, but um-

    Brad Costanzo:   Do you engineer though that- that urgency, and that thing into life now, like in order… because you know that you're a perfectionist, and a procrastinator, do you like… “That's my out. Like, if I do this, even though it's uncomfortable to do it, because it won't be perfect, and it has to be done now,” but at least you know it gets done?

    Rich Schefren:   Yes, I would say, but then, also I've done more, uh… I do more stuff on a day-to-day basis that makes me more ready-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Than maybe in the past. Um, also total aside, but uh, I'm a big believer in having a very functional capture method of ideas, and like of the good ideas you've had, of the ideas you've come across through reading, and everything else, and- and having that at your disposal.

    Brad Costanzo:   You are segueing into the exact next thing I wanted to talk to perfectly-

    Rich Schefren:   Oh, okay. So, the guy who's the best at that in the world, in my opinion, is a guy by the name of Tiago Forte.

    Brad Costanzo:   Okay.

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, he created a course called Build Your Second Brain. Uh, some of the things in there are really powerful, and he has a blog called Praxis. Um, and-

    Brad Costanzo:   I think I've heard of that-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. And some of his essays are great on there, and it was reading his essays that made me realize, “This guys knows the same stuff I do, but he's able to pull it together a lot better than I can.”

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Um, like, you know, he's talking about learning, and content, and then, he's talking about the theory of constraints, all stuff I know really well, and I was like, “Wow, I would've never seen these connections.” Uh, which made me very interested in his stuff, and- and I went on to study it. And, yeah, so his course is called Build Your Second Brain, and it's all about like, yeah, outputting all your notes, and everything you come across into this… into Evernote, or Notion, or something like that-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, and then, what he calls progressive summarization, and I can spend hours just talking about his stuff-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. Well, I remember I bought-

    Rich Schefren:   Um-

    Brad Costanzo:   What- what was it called, Rapid Learning-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   I bought that years ago-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   And I… I mean, it's been years, so I- I don't remember all the details-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. That's… That was 12 years ago-

    Brad Costanzo:   This is interesting to me, because I'm a- I'm a very… I- I- I don't even… I don't even consider myself a speed reader, because I don't use that technique-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Although, I've read stuff-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   I just, I- I read a lot, actually a lot of my… a couple of my clients on their own came up with the nickname for me, it was Bradapedia.

    Rich Schefren:   [laughs].

    Brad Costanzo:   Because they… One of my superpowers is, and uh, my camera man over here is nodding his head-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   But one of my superpowers is the ability to recall… re- retain and recall information like- like that I read from yours years ago-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. I- I have that uncanny ability too. I can't remember the person's name sitting in front of me-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right-

    Rich Schefren:   That said their name like three times, but I can remember where in the book, on the left-hand side, like-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. I do the same.

    Rich Schefren:   Midway through the book, like-

    Brad Costanzo:   But it's funny too-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Because I don't… it's not just totally natural, because when I do read books, when I learn something, I have… and I mean, it's a very basic way, but uh, you know, like for instance if I'm reading a Kindle, and I'm gonna get-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Because I remember years ago, I saw your How I Speed Read video-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Like, “This guy's next level nuts.” Like… [laughs]-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. I still do that.

    Brad Costanzo:   But, yeah, so like, I'll read a Kindle, and I like Kindle-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Better than anything else, because of the highlighting feature-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And the ability to go back through my highlights, because I'm reading for the stuff that… Is it highlight-able or not? So, it's very digital.

    Rich Schefren:   Right.

    Brad Costanzo:   Is this something I wanna highlight? Is it a big… is it fluff, and anecdotal, or is it a… something I wanna remember? And then, I'll go back through, and review it, and if it's a good enough book, I'll go back through on Workflowy-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   The expandable outline-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah- yeah.

    Brad Costanzo:   Thing. And I'll- and I'll take it all, and I'll rebuild it-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Just through the notes. Just by doing that, it seems to integrate it, but that's as far as I really go with the exception of I sometimes annoy people, because I may like… Camera man over here, Aaron, I may go, “Aaron, come- come over…” I did this to him the other night. [laughs]. “I need to- I need to teach this to you, I need to go through it, because it better integrates it for me.”

    Rich Schefren:   Right.

    Brad Costanzo:   But that's my whole process. I'd love to… a little more insight on yours, because I think yours is… probably makes mine look like a child's-

    Rich Schefren:   Well, I- I mean, I do the same thing that I like covered in that video, um, except maybe now more- more of it's digital. I tend to read on two different devices, um… Well, I- I tend to do all my reading on one device, an iPad-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, I use a couple different programs. Um, the first one I use if I wanna go through a book relatively fast is a book called… is a is an app called Voice Dream.

    Brad Costanzo:   Hm, I haven't heard of it-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, like D-R-E-A-M and what Voice Dream does is it will read you the book while also pacing the-

    Brad Costanzo:   Oh, that's-

    Rich Schefren:   So… And you- you can't get ridiculously fast with that, you can go up to like 700 words a minute, but 700 words a minute would let you go through like a bookstore book, hardcover, like 300 pages in about under two hours. Um, and so, a lot of times when I'm working out on an elliptical machine, I'll first go through a book that way, go through it pretty fast, then, if it's worth reading, like, I will read it again, and this time, I'll highlight it. I over-highlight, because I tend to… like, I imagine I'm never gonna look at the book again, so-

    Brad Costanzo:   I do the same. Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   I make sure it's good. And then, I'm also highlighting not only new material, but old material that is said a different way, because like I'm just anal like that, because I'm trying to figure out the right way to say things. Um, so I end up over-highlighting, but now… What I used to do is turn those highlights into, then, an eBook, and a PDF, and a Word Doc, I mean and a- and a voice, and I still have those, but what I also do now is I put it into Evernote-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And then, I will review it again, and then, I will just bold what is most important in everything that I highlighted-

    Brad Costanzo:   Get the 80/20 of the 80/20 of the 80/20 in-

    Rich Schefren:   Then… Yeah. And I- and I keep doing that, because I tend to… So, like, the first time through is bolding it, the next time through, I'm highlighting parts of what I bolded that are even more important than just the bold-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, until I have, then, the parts that I've highlighted, and bolded, of my highlights, I put those as bullet points at the top, and now, I'm ready to write my own opinion, my own thoughts about it. And so, I do that with Evernote with a lot of articles. Uh, like, anything that I'm… Like, you know, content comes to me, if it's something totally personal that I just wanna read out of curiosity, I put that in Pocket, but if it's anything that I plan on ever talking about on… uh- uh, like anything related to anything that I talk about, and am interested in, it goes into Evernote, and I might read the article in Evernote, and uh, waste of time, I just delete it, but if there's anything valuable in it, I'm already bolding it, and then, it's already in there-

    Brad Costanzo:   And are you like using tags, and keywords, and stuff like that-

    Rich Schefren:   Tags, and folders, and stuff like-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. That's where I get lazy-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   That's what I should… and I'm like, “Man, I've got so much in here. I have to end up relying on my memory more than I should.”

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah.

    Brad Costanzo:   Because if it ever goes, I'm kinda screwed, but-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. And something is better than nothing, right?

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   So, like, um, even if you don't do it tagged that well, like over time, you know, because I'm keeping so much source material in it, I can find most notes, because you can do like the more robust type searches, and longterm, like I just wish I had everything that I ever studied in-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Evernote, because it would make my life a lot easier, because-

    Brad Costanzo:   Oh, right. [laughs].

    Rich Schefren:   Generally what would happen when I wrote the reports was, I'd have… I'd… because I never… I don't know if I ever answered your question, I had a lot of different ways to come up with the ideas. Um, one way was looking at the problems in the marketplace, and then, just doing a root cause analysis-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Another way was to look at like sales letter in the industry, and how would I present these as causing part of the problem as opposed to being part of the solution? Because like all the sales letters are saying they're part of the solution. What makes this part of the problem? Uh, it was just a good thinking exercise.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Um, sometimes I go with… Sometimes I have like a solution, like the Theory of Constraints. Okay. What does it solve? A constraint. How do I tie that back into the problems of the marketplace, right? Um, the… I- I started a report, and I finished it, but I never released it, Profit Hacks, primarily because I was doing that with a really good guy, Pete Williams-

    Brad Costanzo:   Pete. Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And we had a difference of opinion, and I never had written a report, um, where I wasn't an instrumental part of the product, and generally when I was writing a report, it would… if it took me in a new direction, I would just have it… that's where my research took me, right?

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative].

    Rich Schefren:   So, um, so, we- we didn't totally agree on the final conclusion, and I don't know what that is going into it-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Um, I… you know, and uh, so, I would say that, that was the… I- I needed… Which, you know, selling a live program after the fact makes it a lot easier too to be able to do that-

    Brad Costanzo:   It does-

    Rich Schefren:   But um, but, yeah, that's the way I've always- that's the way I've always come about it, and it's… but it starts with the prospect in their day-to-day life, and what is life like, and uh, you know, can I use what they're experiencing, can I use what they're noticing in the world around them? Because if you can shift the context, you can also get people to move, right? So, um, yeah, a lot of different ways, and I've tried… But, I- I was very unprepared, and very not expecting what happened in the manifesto. I wrote seven reports in eight months… in 18 months, and the goal was to figure out what made them work.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Um, and so, I tried a lot of different things in those different reports, but the last one was my second-most successful, so I-

    Brad Costanzo:   Which- which was the last one?

    Rich Schefren:   The Entrepreneurial Emergency.

    Brad Costanzo:   Oh, yeah. Okay.

    Rich Schefren:   Which sold the Theory of Constraints course.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   So, yeah. So, that was that's my marketing-

    Brad Costanzo:   Nice-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah.

    Brad Costanzo:   So, then… and then, actually, this dovetails very nicely into, um, some of the stuff you're working on now. So, in being so I guess prolific in paying attention to what's going on-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And- and reading probably… I- I guarantee you're probably reading all types of things from disparate ideas to-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Sure-

    Brad Costanzo:   Like, and everything from AI to probably, you- you know, personal development, to-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   You know, everything. I'm kinda like that myself, just very poly… mass interests.

    Rich Schefren:   Right.

    Brad Costanzo:   There's a great book I read called wait, How to Be… Well, one's called How to Be Everything-

    Rich Schefren:   Okay-

    Brad Costanzo:   That's a… you know, because he's like-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   “Hey, for all you people who are just driving yourself crazy, because you can't… Here's how to be everything.”

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And another one is Refuse to Choose, like you don't actually have to choose just one path, like you can actually satisfy all your different desires, and interests, but uh-

    Rich Schefren:   I- I agree with those philosophies if you then take them… if you take all that, and then, choose-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yes-

    Rich Schefren:   Like, you know, you have to focus where you're going to apply that knowledge.

    Brad Costanzo:   Well, and that's what I like, is I like reading all that stuff, and trying to find what is that common thread, and that common thread that, you know, the… My, I guess, uh- uh, life's mission, or business mission, for lack of a better, you know-

    Rich Schefren:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Brad Costanzo:   Really, concept, is really just to help, especially entrepreneurs, and business people just get clarity, and confidence, and- and help just increase their ability to- to get things done, right?

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   So, it's like if I can pull from these other areas, and it can coalesce into just a better message that helps people understand their business, their life, the world around them, then, I just… I- I like that-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   It's a very similar thing-

    Rich Schefren:   It's rewarding.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. And then, so, you notice things probably quicker than a lot of people do, I mean, you've predicted multiple trends, you've gotten ahead of them, and I know that in marketing, a very, um… and especially with- with, I think, your theories, this concept of inciting incident-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Or something happened, like, “Pay attention to this.”

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   That's one way to get attention-

    Rich Schefren:   Sure.

    Brad Costanzo:   And I noticed you actually just caught one the other day. Uh, I'm on your newsletter list-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And I had seen it, and then, you talked about it, which was how Google is getting rid of-

    Rich Schefren:   Rid of cookies-

    Brad Costanzo:   Third party cookies-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah- yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   And how like it's gonna cause a big-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Ruckus in the world of online marketing. Nobody knows exactly how, or what the-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Is, but I know you've been paying attention to a lot of the things that especially big tech has been doing-

    Rich Schefren:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Brad Costanzo:   And how it's been changing. So, this is really where now we're transitioning into what's-

    Rich Schefren:   What's now?

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. What's now?

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Because we've talked about all your past.

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. I would say that the last thing just about the past, just to, uh-

    Brad Costanzo:   Tie it up-

    Rich Schefren:   We don't need… Yeah. And we don't need to spend a lot of time on it is just a perspective that like I- I think most people think of like business as like a marathon-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   You know, I don't think of it as a marathon, and that could be because I have ADD, and whatever, but uh, but I tend to think of it as a series of sprints-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And so, each campaign, when I'm about to launch a campaign, I need to like amp it up a little bit, and… but, the good news is, is that I'm a sprinter competing over short periods of time with marathon runners, right?

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And so, it's easy to rise above the clutter when, um, when you can go, you know, all out, and you know like, you know, this is a 30 day, 60 day, 90 day slog, or whatever it is, but like, you can be at an intensity that nobody else can be at, because you know it's going to, you know, you're gonna reap the rewards. And so, I've always tried to camp… start campaigns with that like initial sprint of like, you know, commanding attention.

    Um, so that's just on that, but as we move towards the now, and the future, what I think a lot of people don't realize is how precarious the situation has become. It's kinda one of those things where maybe people aren't talking about it to one another, but uh, less businesses have been started year after year after year for like the last 20 years in the US-

    Brad Costanzo:   I saw a stat on that-

    Rich Schefren:   And I think that it's pretty worldwide, and uh, less VC money is being applied, and there's less innovation, which is hard for people to get their head around, but like, you know I'm 48, so almost 50, and so, I still have some memories of like when Ma Bell was like the- the only game in town, and you had to rent your phone from the phone company, you couldn't buy a phone anywhere. No one sold a phone, and it wasn't until they broke up Ma Bell that you could then buy a phone, and then, phones were all over the place. So, I'm pretty certain like we wouldn't have cell phones today if they didn't break up Ma Bell.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   And we probably wouldn't have Google if the government didn't break up, um, Microsoft's dominance at that time.

    Brad Costanzo:   Well, the bigger you get, the harder it is to innovate, the more risk there is in innovation.

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Like, so when was the last big innovation in tech? Like, you know, I mean, the iPhone's 11 years old, like where- where… the iPad is eight, nine years old.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Like, what new device… 5g will- will roll- roll out soon, and that will open up opportunities that people can't even imagine, myself included, um, because we couldn't imagine Uber until 4g came out.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Like, so 4g made a lot of stuff that we use today now-

    Brad Costanzo:   I think that's probably, although it's not a device, the- the whole gig sharing economy on the back of everybody's smartphones is probably-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   The biggest innovation that you know, that we've kind of really seen, because-

    Rich Schefren:   Right. And it's actually bad for people, and good for business.

    Brad Costanzo:   Right.

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, so it's, you know… because it's a way of paying people less, not paying for their healthcare, like all kinds of stuff.

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative].

    Rich Schefren:   So, I would say, yeah, the gig economy, while in certain ways, really good, it's also lowered the bar of what companies need to provide their employees in a- in a very big way, and that's also been somewhat calculatedly done-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   Um, basically, there's no industry that's good once you put big in front of it, right?

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Like, so, whether it's, you know, big oil, big tobacco, big pharma, these are not the kind of… the industries, and big tech is the second biggest lobbying group in the United States.

    Brad Costanzo:   Is it really? I wouldn't have guessed that.

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Um, they've changed a lot of laws. Laws that make it okay for them to scrape content, and put it on their site. They were afraid when Napster got caught that they would have the same thing. So-

    Brad Costanzo:   Like, and- and you mention that, just to go detail, like, we were talking-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   About it offline with Google.

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Like, now, Google sends-

    Brad Costanzo:   I mean, beep-

    Rich Schefren:   More than… but the whole original idea of search engine was, “We're gonna scrape the world's content, people will come to our site, and they'll find the content they want, and then, they'll go there.”

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   So, ours was just a stopping… the- the search engine was a stopping hole, not… Now, Google sees it as a world garden, and they don't want people to leave unless they're paying them but why are people going to Google? They're going to Google, because they have our content on there. It's like-

    Brad Costanzo:   And a great example for if-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   People don't know exactly what we're talking about, I did this last night. I was making a steak last night, a flatiron steak, and uh, I had to, um, Google-

    Rich Schefren:   Some- some directions. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   “Best- best internal temperature for medium rare on a flatiron steak”, and I- I typed it into Google, and it showed up without-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   I- I didn't have to click on the site it pulled it from-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   It just pulled it-

    Rich Schefren:   Showed up in that answer box-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right there.

    Rich Schefren:   And that answer box wasn't populated by Google, it was someone else's content that they scraped, and put on their site, um, and they're being sued for it. And, you know, Facebook did the same thing, right? Like, everybody and their brother was advertising “like us on Facebook”, from, you know, McDonald's to Mercedes-Benz, and then, they said, “You know, yeah. No- no more. Only .05%”-

    Brad Costanzo:   And that rug you were stand- that rug you were standing on-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Is gone now.

    Rich Schefren:   So- so, big tech is not our friend as entrepreneurs, and they're going into more and more spaces that will cost us more money. The typical pattern is always there, where, you know, every new platform opens… welcomes us with open arms, small business, and direct response advertisers, and then, as other businesses come in, and, you know, the bid prices go up, they have less of a need for us, and so, terms of service escalate, and then, we get kicked out. And that's happened, you know, everywhere, from Facebook to Google to, you know even the companies prior to Google.

    And so what I think people need to realize is, is that while they never thought of these platforms as necessarily competition, they quickly are becoming competition, and they certainly see us as competition, and it's very convenient that they're very big, and strong, and we're very weak, and they can basically banish us from the internet, and make us invisible, right? And God knows how many people have lost their accounts, whether it Google or Facebook, because like… of like a terms of service thing, and then, if you're small, good luck getting anyone on the phone to help you, right? Like, that doesn't happen unless you're a big company like-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Agora, or something like that. So, you know, about two years ago, Agora bought my company, um, after I had taken a bunch of years off, and they wanted me to help them with the platforms, and at first, I was studying a lot of AI, and data, because I thought maybe that would be the solution, but um, you know, with what Google just did about, you know, getting rid of cookies in the next two years, with the Chrome browser, which is 66% of the browser usage, um, that's a big deal, and that is gonna change the whole data environment, and it's really like Google and Facebook are… Well, Google in this particular case is kinda like pulling the ladder out behind them-

    Brad Costanzo:   And- and just so, like, at least my audience understands it even more-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   So, one- one of the things, like in-

    Rich Schefren:   The whole-

    Brad Costanzo:   In layman's terms-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   So, like, if you are… like, you've got a Facebook pixel on my site-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And I've got a Facebook pixel on Bacon Wrapped Business-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   So, when you come there, I can cookie you, and then, follow you around with all my ads.

    Rich Schefren:   Right.

    Brad Costanzo:   Um, that's not going to work, is that correct?

    Rich Schefren:   It depends-

    Brad Costanzo:   Or is that-

    Rich Schefren:   It depends. Um, it depends, and like a lot of those kind of details are not fully shaken out yet. Now, will you be able to re-target people who have come to your page with a Facebook pixel on your page on Facebook? Possibly.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Um, there are other ways to do it, like an identity graph, um, but I don't know… but you certainly… but the whole industry as of right now, relies on cookies, retargeting relies on cookies, the ability to use programmatic advertising-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Relies on cookies. Um-

    Brad Costanzo:   And programmatic advertising is huge-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   It's a huge industry.

    Rich Schefren:   And it's all… it's- it's the reason… But cookies are why you can go to Amazon, and… on- on a web browser, and you're pre-logged-in, you know?

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Like, that goes away. Um, so, yeah, but Google doesn't… any company that has the majority of people in the world signing into their platform from every device that they have doesn't really need cookies.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   They have like… they know every device ID. They know my TV's device IDs because of YouTube, right? They know my- my, you know, my- my iPhone, and my iPad, and my computer based on log-ins. So, they have every device. They don't need to cookie-

    Brad Costanzo:   And it makes that… and in giving us this, “Oh, we're making it more private for you guys,” what they're really doing is they're- they're making themselves more powerful, because-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. It's like-

    Brad Costanzo:   They're-

    Rich Schefren:   It's like buying all the machine guns in the world, and then, tomorrow saying, “From now on, machine guns will be illegal to manufacture, and sell.”

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   You know, it's not that they're illegal completely, it's just that they're illegal to everyone else, right?

    Brad Costanzo:   “But we've got them all.”

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. And that's kinda how it is. And so, um, what… You know, so my advice to Agora was like, “We need the best experts in every different channel, and every different medium to really come up with a strategy that makes us much less dependent on any of these platforms, and they agreed, and so, that's what we did. And we want… At some point, then, it occurred to us that we might as well do this for the whole internet marketing community-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Um, especially since, like I don't wanna see it go away, um, you know, I was there towards the very beginning of it, and helped it grow, and even like I've had businesses that I've sold that then other people ran into the ground, and it was sad to see. Like, you know, the same with the market, I don't wanna see this market disappear. Um-

    Brad Costanzo:   I've- I've had the same thing happen to me-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   And I've also bought a business, and ran it into the ground-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   I'm sure that guy is-

    Rich Schefren:   I have a friend who sold a business for a- a ton of money to Beatrice back in the old days-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And then, Beatrice ran it into the ground. I think he sold it… they bought it- they bought it from him for like $60 million, and he was able to buy it back for like $3 million like 10 years later, rebuilt it back up to like a $50 million dollar business, and sold it-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Um, not my story, but um… [laughs]. But anyway, yeah. So, there… if- if we're gonna help Agora, we might as well help everyone else, and I have a special attachment to this market, especially because I never thought I'd be as successful as I am, and uh, so we're doing a 24-hour live stream on February 19th-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   From… That will be epic. It will be from 7:00 p.m. on February 19th, I believe that's a Wednesday, until Thursday, February 20th at 7:00 p.m. So, we're gonna go 24 hours, and the guest list is really like the people that you most want to learn from. So, it's Russell Brunson of Click Funnels, Rus- Rus-

    Brad Costanzo:   Who is that? Sorry-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Ryan Deiss and Roland Frasier of Digital Marketer. Uh, Mike Filsaime, Jeff Walker, Todd Brown, [inaudible 00:50:51], Neil Patel James Van Elswyk, um I'm drawing a blank for a second-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, Mike Dillard. Um, there's about 30 or 40 people so far. Uh, we're broadcasting out of Mark Ford's private cigar bar, and uh, we're gonna be doing a lot of fun stuff in the background too-

    Brad Costanzo:   That's cool-

    Rich Schefren:   And uh, yeah, and it's a way to really… All of us are gonna be teaching our winning strategies currently that are working now to make 2020 your best year yet, and to make the decade of 2020 your best decade, even though you're entering into a hostile environment with these big tech platforms, and recognizing that, and building a business that benefits off these platforms, but is not totally reliant on these platforms, so that you still have the freedom that you want, but also are protected, is the outcome that I want for everyone who comes on the live stream.

    Brad Costanzo:   Right. Are there any strategies overall that you think people should really start to be focusing on right now to either help, A, insulate themselves from some of these dangers-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Or capitalize on some really big opportunities that you do see, because it's- it's not all-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Well, one- one thing I would say for sure is that I would love to see more businesses do more partnering for sure-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Um, I see it done all the time at Agora, and to the point that sometimes the best answer to a complex question is just find a partner, and what I mean by that is like, um, you know, so, Katie Vogel, who works in the same division that I work in, I have mad respect for her, and she's a great media buyer, um, I would say I'm more strategic than she is. Um, she's a much better media buyer than I am. Um, we both… like, a problem came to both of us at the same time, and it was like we need to get the average lead, like bumped up by like $1.50 to make this whole campaign work, or something like that.

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative].

    Rich Schefren:   And, you know, me being the marketer that I am, I'm like, “Okay. Well, let me look at the funnel, let me see where we can like, you know, optimize, and tweak stuff, and really like ratchet it- it up in that way.” I'm like, “You know, I need to look at it overnight, and I'll have an answer for you tomorrow.”

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Right? Kind of thing. Katie's like, “You know, we can just get another division, or an outside company to go halve-sies with us on the lead, right? And like, they'll put in two bucks, and then, like we'll give them the lead, you know, on a CPA basis.”

    Brad Costanzo:   Yep-

    Rich Schefren:   “Uh, and we're good to go.” And so… And that's a much better answer, actually, like not that the funnel shouldn't be looked at, but like as far as speed goes-

    Brad Costanzo:   Sometimes, it's easier. Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. And so, I think that like prior to my like leaving the market for a while, the market was very partner focused, you could say, right?

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, overly focused, perse, on-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. Everybody was just promoting-

    Rich Schefren:   And prior to Facebook, there was a really good reason for that, because like it was very hard to buy ad words for businesses like ours, like, Facebook was the first way that we could actually target people based on who they were-

    Brad Costanzo:   Accidental discovery was like super hard-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Like now, like social media's made ads… like, “Oh, I'm just browsing around, and I… it put it in front of me.”

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Right.

    Brad Costanzo:   Before, you had to get it in front of search terms-

    Rich Schefren:   Right. And someone typing in “make money online” is way too green, like they're gonna believe stuff that I have no time to dispel those dreams-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yep-

    Rich Schefren:   And then, you know, someone who is typing in Infusionsoft is now, at that time, looking for Infusionsoft, they're not looking for… So- so, you know Facebook opened up a lot of doors, but I think people like kind of abandoned their partnership type stuff, and I think nowadays, while it shouldn't go back to maybe the… as crazy it was in the past-

    Brad Costanzo:   And how incestuous it was-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. But I think that everybody… every business wants to have three, four, five partners in complimentary type businesses that are also growing through outside traffic, so that they're all contributing to a bigger pie-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   Of those companies. And actually, in the final chapter when I wrote about it, that was one of the big differences between the US direct response companies and the ones in the rest of the world. The ones in the US, the reason they got big was because they rented their lists back and forth. Uh, nowhere else in the world did they do that, and because of that, you know, a company could expand the market, then go out of business, and the market goes back to its original size, as opposed to if everybody is renting lists, the market keeps growing, right?

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   So, I think having some partnerships not just for, maybe lead gen, but also for, you know, for backend, but also for customer acquisition, is important. Um, I'd also say that people should start thinking about some of the stuff that we were talking about earlier, because I believe… Well, it's… I'm certain of this, it's not even a belief. Um, I'm certain that media buying will quickly, over time, disappear, and some of my best friends who are media buyers tell me the same thing.

    Brad Costanzo:   Because of AI?

    Rich Schefren:   Because of AI.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. And so-

    Brad Costanzo:   It's already doing almost a better job simply through a lookalike audience-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Versus trying to pick the interests yourself-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. And it-

    Brad Costanzo:   You're like… don't-

    Rich Schefren:   And it's- and it's got- it's got, you know, it'll improve-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And improve, and improve, and it'll be crazy. So, I think what people have to realize is that- that- that, that type of media buying, um, was almost like an anomaly in a way, um, kind of-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, it's not true marketing, and what I mean by that is that, that's almost more like advertising, and advertising is a part of marketing, but it's not marketing. Um, so, when you're going out into people who are already prospects, and trying to get them to buy, I really consider that… just my terms, really that's chasing demand. There's demand out there, let's get our ad out in front of it, and look, people have built billion dollar companies chasing demand. There's absolutely nothing wrong with chasing demand, but online, chasing demand is- is, you know, is what is gonna be automated by AI.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Like, put our ads in front of the people that are most likely to respond, most likely to buy. Uh, whereas, marketing has always been, at least from my perspective, like helping prospects value your product, however that happens, right? And so, creating demand is about that, and- and I don't believe creating demand is anything that, based on… and I've read a lot about AI and data, like I don't see that being a skill that AI is going to pick up anytime in the short term.

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative].

    Rich Schefren:   So, understanding how to create demand, how to take prospects through more of a process, so starting earlier in the customer journey, but where therefore you have more say in the buying criteria, and stuff like that-

    Brad Costanzo:   That's why I started this whole interview with that whole concept-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah- yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Because that's what I find is a harder to replace skill-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   A very valuable-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   And it can be used regardless of the medium, because if you-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. It can be used anywhere, but then, some obvious stuff, people should be downloading their data from, you know, analytics from their Facebook account, from their Google account, because if they ever lose their accounts, that… all that data disappears. Um, they should be keeping all the data that they can on their customers, on their web logs, everything, it's all gonna be useful later on.

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative].

    Rich Schefren:   Um, and then, I would say making sure that you can move fast, and seize upon the opportunities that open as they relate to your business, not something totally opportunistic, but but seizing on the opportunities fast, and that requires like having a few really good sources, and I think that at least when I left the market, um, the market was more defined, and there were clearly market leaders, and I think nowadays, the market is so big, and so fractured, and there's so many people pretending to be experts that it's hard to kinda separate the real from the fake.

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative].

    Rich Schefren:   And so, people need to spend more time on the front side vetting who they're getting advice from, and has- has their advice proven out, do they have a track record, those kinds of things? Uh, so those would be some, and obviously, there's more. Uh-

    Brad Costanzo:   So, are you saying that if I run across somebody on Instagram-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   In front of a Maserati-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Who says they're an entrepreneur that can give you advice, that, that is not all the criteria that I need?

    Rich Schefren:   No, no, that's not all the criteria you need. Um, nor if you rent an Airbnb, and record a video in front of your-

    Brad Costanzo:   [laughs]-

    Rich Schefren:   Your house for the day. Um, but, unfortunately, a lot of people are tricked that way-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And they… And to me, that's something I've always taken extremely seriously-

    Brad Costanzo:   Mm-hmm [affirmative]-

    Rich Schefren:   Like you know, maybe because of those two years where things weren't really clicking for me online, and I started thinking that there was a problem about me, and the time I was taking away from my family, and the time I was sitting in front of the computer, and like, just life being a living hell, and, you know, it's always been clear to me that like, I never wanted to help someone who was selling something that didn't work.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Because that was worse than stealing, because if you steal money from someone, okay, they don't have that money-

    Brad Costanzo:   You're stealing time-

    Rich Schefren:   But you're stealing their time, their hope, their dream-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   The- the, you know, the promises they made to their family, and so on, and so forth. So, I think like, yeah, people who sell fake shit are-

    Brad Costanzo:   Evil. Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Evil. The scum of the Earth.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Um, and the platforms aren't much better, so so that's why we have to band together, and uh, that's why we're doing this live stream, but I totally agree, and uh, yeah. There's just a lot of… There's a lot of… You know what? There's a lot of people who even mean well, but they're selling recycled material that they've never done, they've just like learned it from someone who learned it from- from someone who learned it, which doesn't work. So, um, yeah. So, part of being able to operate fast, and follow the right strategies are… and- and to seize moments that… when they happen, is to have the right people in-place.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   So- so… From- from… to learn from, like the perceived… The- the right… the experts that you would call on, or get advice for the different areas of the online world-

    Brad Costanzo:   Right. Well, and it's really cool to see the… uh, some of the stuff that you've kind of been doing, and are moving even more so into, especially with the partnership with Agora, because-

    Rich Schefren:   Sure-

    Brad Costanzo:   Agora is, you know, an absolute powerhouse of, not only knowledge, but expertise, and, I mean, the people who do it-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   [laughs]. Like, the data they've got is huge, and you know, you said something offline you know, as well, which is that you're… you've… I may be paraphrasing here, but when you can work inside there to where it's not just you, and maybe a small team-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   You're actually working with a bigger company, bigger resources, different things-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   That it- it actually enables you… I- I don't wanna paraphrase-

    Rich Schefren:   Well, it's just I- I've you know, it… As you- as you grow up, I guess, you learn more about yourself, and what works for you, and what doesn't, and that, yeah, you might be able to be okay here, but you're much better off if you're here, or whatnot. So you know, I've always… I've worked alone most of my life. I mean, I've had my own team, and my own business, I guess, so I wasn't alone, but uh, but I wasn't part of a bigger company, not the person at the top of the company for a long time, and uh, but some of the best times I've had is when I've been not leading a company, but been actually part of a group in a company-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   And I tend to enjoy that more. And so I didn't know that. I also- I also didn't know that like their energy has a very big impact on me-

    Brad Costanzo:   Especially if-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   They're go-getters, and they're-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. That brings it up, and if you're not the one who has to hire, and take care of all that-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Exactly.

    Brad Costanzo:   There's a- there's a term I came across, um, I don't know, maybe about a year ago, and I've seen it with some innovation-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   Com- com- companies, but the concept of an entrepreneur in residence-

    Rich Schefren:   Right. Yeah.

    Brad Costanzo:   And I love that. Uh, you know-

    Rich Schefren:   It's hard though, I tell you, because-

    Brad Costanzo:   I'd imagine-

    Rich Schefren:   Like Agora, like, you know, there's still a bureaucracy-

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   So, you know, I mean, I'm fortunate that at least like I have a- I have a testimonial from Bill that's a billion dollar testimonial, and it's about like helping them… like, I told them to get on VSLs really- really early on, and that made a billion dollar difference in the company, but like on the timing thing, and I don't remember if we were talking about that offline, or online here, like nowadays when we test VSLs versus regular sales letters, it's about the same. Um-

    Brad Costanzo:   Is it really?

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. So, like jumping on things early on means a 400% increase.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah.

    Rich Schefren:   Right? Like, jumping onto things too late you know, a big difference. It's like when we first started doing automated webinars in 2007, or '08, show-up rate was insane, like everything was insane, you know?

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah-

    Rich Schefren:   Like, now you have to fight-

    Brad Costanzo:   That's fatigue. Fatigue in offers, in ads-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   And everything else-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   I mean, if you… if I see a VSL, nine times out of 10-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   I'm not gonna watch it unless-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   Like I want to read it, because I'm just like-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   “I've been through this. Just let me read it. Let me get to the point.”

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Exactly. So, um, yeah. So, that's why seizing things-

    Brad Costanzo:   The novelties gone-

    Rich Schefren:   Is important. Yeah. Is important.

    Brad Costanzo:   But um… And I- I'm really excited to see the stuff you've got coming on. You know, I've been on- I've been on your newsletter forever-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   I still pay attention to the stuff that's coming out. I know this- this live streams gonna be absolutely killer.

    Rich Schefren:   It will be amazing.

    Brad Costanzo:   Um, I mean, you've got a bunch of like-

    Rich Schefren:   It'll be the biggest even online, I think, in the last decade-

    Brad Costanzo:   Really?

    Rich Schefren:   I really believe that, and I believe that people will walk away with so much value, um, because, yeah, there's- there's no like-

    Brad Costanzo:   Just gotta bring a lot of- of Red Bull to the live stream. [laughs].

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. Well, unfortunately, I get motivated by you know, marketing, and business growth, so that'll be easy, but I think that, uh-

    Brad Costanzo:   No, I'm talking about the watch… the- the viewers-

    Rich Schefren:   Oh, the people watching. Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   [laughs]… that gotta watch all 24 hours.

    Rich Schefren:   Well, maybe- maybe… Yeah. That'll be hard, I think, for most people. Maybe have a watch party, um, but uh, yeah. Definitely very, very important that they check it out, because I know that they'll get a lot of benefit from it, even some of the stuff that we're giving away for free when you opt-in is pretty powerful stuff.

    Brad Costanzo:   Right. And so, and- and talking about opting in. So, you… the- the process to watch the live stream-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   They'll opt-in. So, I'm gonna set up a link. People can go to BaconWrappedBusiness.com/Rich and use codeword BACON

    Rich Schefren:   Yep. That works. That's my name.

    Brad Costanzo:   Rich, as in rich, and Rich.

    Rich Schefren:   [laughs].

    Brad Costanzo:   A double entendre, um, and uh, there will be a link in the show notes, and wherever you're watching this, that you can check it out-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah-

    Brad Costanzo:   So, they can opt-in-

    Rich Schefren:   And then, there will be a code, and you'll wanna type in “BACON“.

    Brad Costanzo:   Bacon?

    Rich Schefren:   Right.

    Brad Costanzo:   That's easy to remember.

    Rich Schefren:   That is easy to remember. And then, you'll be taken to a page where you'll have the choice of whether to register or not for the live stream. It's free. Um, when you register, you'll also get three presentations that I gave last summer to all the international publishers at Agora. Uh, the first presentation was how to increase conversion… 13 ways to increase conversion rate without changing a word of copy, 11 ways… the second presentation was like 11 ways to increase cart value, and the third one was VSLs, webinars, and stealth… other stealth methods of selling, and uh… And then, all they have to do is mark their calendar for the 19th, and show up at 7:00 p.m.

    Brad Costanzo:   I can't wait-

    Rich Schefren:   Cool.

    Brad Costanzo:   You know, the only- the only thing that I'm bummed about is I'm- I'm flying out… I- I think I'm flying out on the morning of the 20th, I'm flying to Austin. So, I'm gonna be able to watch a little bit that night, but-

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. You'll- you'll be able to watch it before you get on the plane-

    Brad Costanzo:   From my phone, the data-

    Rich Schefren:   If there's wifi on the plane-

    Brad Costanzo:   Hey, there you go.

    Rich Schefren:   Uh, we'll be on every channel, that's for sure.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. That'll be fun.

    Rich Schefren:   It's very cool.

    Brad Costanzo:   Well, Rich, I can't thank you enough for stopping by today, and uh, man, it's been a pleasure.

    Rich Schefren:   Yeah. My pleasure, man-

    Brad Costanzo:   To sit with you for this long.

    Rich Schefren:   It was good talking to you.

    Brad Costanzo:   Yeah. And, I mean, to anybody listening, to anybody watching, um, I think if- if you're one of my fans, hopefully you are and you like the things that I have to say this is one of the guys that I've learned a lot from vicariously just from buying his stuff, reading his stuff, paying attention, and now, getting to sit with him, and talk about this. So, um, I mean, my recommendation is always go to the source. Who are the people that you look up to learning from? And, you know, Rich is one of very few people that I can say, like I'm one of those Kevin Kelly style-

    Rich Schefren:   Right-

    Brad Costanzo:   You know, super fans, where it's like, “Man, if you put it out, I'm paying attention to it.” So, I highly recommend… check out what Rich is doing on the 19th, that's at BaconWrappedBusiness/Rich. After the 19th, I'm sure we'll redirect that to some other resource that Rich has got if you happen to miss the live stream, if you're watching this later on, but uh, once more, Rich, I can't thank you enough for sharing your insights with us.

    Rich Schefren:   My pleasure, man.

    Click Here To Get A Free Ticket To The Livestream and Unlock The Vault with Codeword:  BACON

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